Ken, I see your point and I am happy not be alone in thinking that too make a good or a very good espresso someone does not need years of training and spending thousands of euro/dollars on extra add-ons and modifications to their gear. Don't get me wrong: I am a mechanical engineer and I love modding stuff. After having my gear for only 3 months I was already over the drawings to try and see how it could be better...but knowing that there is, in fact, a lot of R&D around the coffee gear, as well as a lot of passion, I started to think that maybe they were not needed. Some mods and techniques are useful to adapt the prosumer gear to a light home use, but I think are not essential for a good cup. Of course I will keep on modding but that's because I love doing it!
I agree that all the italian coffee blends you buy out of Italy is old and not properly...but when I was in Rome I managed to make good espressos using pre-ground coffee (only some selected brands that I have never seen abroad, such as Pellini, Vergnano, Palombini, etc) and my father's Gaggia espresso!
It is also true that Italians in Italy are much less "fussy" about espresso and, in my opinion, that's because we can drink a good espresso pretty much at every corner of the street, from 6am to 11pm, 365 days a year. Only a few places in Rome, for example, i would say have a great great espresso and they are mostly places that roast their own coffee almost on daily bases. Same applies for Pizza: in Rome I can have an amazing pizza in some places, a good one pretty much everywhere and i would have to specifically look for a really crap one. I am sometimes amazed by the quality of the espresso in some coffee shops when i am abroad as well as I am aware of the extremely low quality of the average espresso in the same countries.
I think it goes down to the fact that out of Italy the espresso is still some sort of a speciality coffee, same as any other kind of coffee, beside espresso, is virtually unknown in Italy. I am sure many of you would be disgusted by the americanos you would be served in the vast majority of the coffee shop in Italy.
I believe that the philosophy behind the whole home-user espresso gear was originally to give people the possibility to drink a better coffee than the one made with a moka, which is still what 99% of italian uses for their home coffee. An espresso in Rome is between 50 and 90 euro cents making it more convenient to buy one in a bar every time you want than spending 1000+ euros to make it at home. Unless someone has a passion for making it, as I have, as you have.
What drives us to put all this time and effort in coffee making is a passion, a satisfaction that we get - I guess - more in making the perfect cup than actually drinking it and knowing that WE have made that perfect cup (I am the same for cooking but that will take another forum... ) !

courghan wrote:I think it goes down to the fact that out of Italy the espresso is still some sort of a speciality coffee, same as any other kind of coffee, beside espresso, is virtually unknown in Italy. I am sure many of you would be disgusted by the americanos you would be served in the vast majority of the coffee shop in Italy.
I believe that the philosophy behind the whole home-user espresso gear was originally to give people the possibility to drink a better coffee than the one made with a moka, which is still what 99% of italian uses for their home coffee. An espresso in Rome is between 50 and 90 euro cents making it more convenient to buy one in a bar every time you want than spending 1000+ euros to make it at home. Unless someone has a passion for making it, as I have, as you have.
What drives us to put all this time and effort in coffee making is a passion, a satisfaction that we get - I guess - more in making the perfect cup than actually drinking it and knowing that WE have made that perfect cup (I am the same for cooking but that will take another forum... ) !

Home espresso making has changed dramatically in the last few years. It was not long ago, may be 10 or 12 years ago, when the selection of home equipment was so limited that I chose to buy a 1 group commercial machine, rather than one of the rather useless toy like machines that were being sold for home use.

The internet came out of the United States, and for a long time, the USA was the major market for home espresso gear. Given the propensity here to put enormous quantities of milk into coffee drinks, combined with the American love of all things excessive, I don't think it is at all surprising how American home, and internet based, espresso preferences evolved in the way that they have.

It is rare to find an Italian on any of the coffee forums. I extend to you a warm welcome as I am sure is extended by all of the regular HB participants.

ken

Ken Fox wrote:...combined with the American love of all things excessive..

That's getting a little excessive now, Ken, we got it.

Geoff

Ken Fox wrote:It is rare to find an Italian on any of the coffee forums.

Expect another. A DP friend of mine from Italy always tries to be the one to come pick up gear from me when his production company rents from me, as I always make him an espresso. (BTW, he just left, and he dumped a teaspoon and a half of sugar into his doppio, and looked at me like I'd grown a second head when I asked if he took sugar!)
He asked a few questions about how to get good results from his two home machines and I sent him here.

I just read this ENTIRE thread, and I have a few comments and questions. First, I finally bought a gram scale the other night and weighed my dose for the first time this morning. There are two double baskets I normally use: the stock version that came with my Anita, and a "ridgeless LM" basket I bought from EPNW. Dosing Hair Bender into the ridgeless with a little tap and doing a sort of NSEW sweep/Stockfleth's, I ended up with a whopping 20.3 grams in the basket! I tried again without the tap and still got around 19g. In the stock basket it was around 18g or 17g with no tap.

With all that said, the shots I've been pulling lately have been some of the best I've ever made at home. They've been on par with or better than the shots I get at Stumptown (in my book). I attribute that to my increasing skill level and better understanding of my machine's temperature profile, but still. So now I'm really tempted to try this underdosing thing for real since I have a scale. I've tried it before, but I obviously was still nowhere near 14g. Somehow I don't think Hair Bender is the blend to try it with, though. It seems to have been designed for overdosing, and I don't think there is much expansion of the puck since I only see an imprint of the shower screen at the high doses I have become accustomed to. Also, someone in the know told me it is mostly WP coffees that don't swell much.

Now my question . . . What is considered a double in Italy? It seems like some people might be getting volumes more akin to a single than a double when they go to a lower dose. I mean, in my book a 1.25 oz double is considered a ristretto. Is that not true? I thought a traditional double was around 2 oz. I can understand why people are ending up with a lower volume if they are cutting the shot when it blondes - I get the same results with my e61 HX machine - but does this mean we're still doing something wrong? I rarely get more than 1.5-1.75 oz (estimated) before the shot blondes no matter what my grind setting and dose are.

Thanks for reading.

Justin

jgriff wrote:Now my question . . . What is considered a double in Italy? It seems like some people might be getting volumes more akin to a single than a double when they go to a lower dose. I mean, in my book a 1.25 oz double is considered a ristretto. Is that not true? I thought a traditional double was around 2 oz. I can understand why people are ending up with a lower volume if they are cutting the shot when it blondes

Your definition of blonde and someone else's might differ, but it would follow that if you're still pulling two ounces at twenty-murmurmumble seconds at a lower dose, then you are using a finer grind, and that you are removing solubles from the available surfaces of the grinds at the same rate. While the smaller dose has a smaller amount of solubles available, I'm getting near enough the same end result, with a finer grind and a smaller dose as I am from updosing, before blonding.
Not exactly, you're right, but near enough.
Some of the scientists on the fora will be along shortly to correct me on my math, but empirical evidence supports similar results as long as the grinder follows the dose. More easily repeatable, less fussy about details, and some improvements in flavor, (but I prefer the mouthfeel of an updosed ristretto...) but similar visual results.

HB wrote:That's about the same as me. Since you have your scale, expressing the drink in terms of brew ratios may be more illuminating. It's been awhile since I checked, but IIRC, most of mine are around 60%.

That's the next step I will take in the name of espresso-geekery. I didn't want to add too many new pieces or make too many changes to my routine at one time. FWIW, so far my results with a lower dose have been fine but I think I prefer a higher dose, at least with Hair Bender. I end up with a really wet puck and it definitely isn't expanding to the point where there is any impression from the shower screen. The taste is definitely more mild, but it lacks the punch I'm accustomed to from this blend. I'm pretty sure they dose around 20 grams at the Stumptown cafes around here.

Psyd wrote:Your definition of blonde and someone else's might differ. . . .

Honestly, I'm still not sure I know exactly when to cut the shot based on appearance. I've seen videos, Jim's chart, etc., but it can still be kind of elusive to judge the right moment. I guess I should try to whole splitting the shot thing and taste the difference.

Justin

jgriff wrote:Now my question . . . What is considered a double in Italy? It seems like some people might be getting volumes more akin to a single than a double when they go to a lower dose. I mean, in my book a 1.25 oz double is considered a ristretto. Is that not true? I thought a traditional double was around 2 oz..

Justin - when I was in Italy, the barista would often ask if you would like (pardon my Italian spelling) lungo, normale, or ristretto when you order 'un caffe'. IIRC - normale usually looked like it was in the 1.75-2 oz range.

Geoff

Ozark_61 wrote:Justin - when I was in Italy, the barista would often ask if you would like (pardon my Italian spelling) lungo, normale, or ristretto when you order 'un caffe'. IIRC - normale usually looked like it was in the 1.75-2 oz range.

Geoff

That brings up an interesting question. Surely they don't adjust the grinder each time an order is placed for a shot based on the volume the customer asks for, so are they just varying the dose to get a different type of shot?

Justin