Another bitter espresso thread but...

#1: Post by **kidloco** » July 26th, 2015, 12:14 pm

It should be simple, if bitter grind coarser to get faster flow or-and pull longer... If that does not help than its is to hot... and that should be that?

I have Butterfly Levetta NEW E61 HX machine, and mazzer mini with a year old burrs, should make decent espresso right? I am using Ethiopia Yirgacheffe, light roast, pulling doubles with 12-13grams dosage. Shots are bitter, unless I adjust grind to give me 24-26grams in 15 seconds. That should not be right?

You will say "how does it taste"? Well not bad, not bad at all, but I am no professional taster... And I never heard that 15 second shot could be sweet spot for espresso?

I flush until I get steady stream from spout, wait 15-25 seconds and pull shot. I flush around 200ml of water, do not have thermometer so I do not now if I am brewing too hot but I do not think so, and lighter roasts need to be pulled a little hotter yes?

So I can get shots that are not bitter but only on price of pulling 15 shots and go way past blonding point... What I am doing wrong?

#2: Post by **LukeFlynn** » July 26th, 2015, 12:29 pm

Could be that dose with that coffee. I always go a bit higher (16-18) for Yirgs. Also, I tend to go for a lower temp for Yirgs (195 or so).. really enjoyed Idido that way. Also, try pulling a longer shot.. (30-35 seconds?)

July 26th, 2015, 4:26 pm

Im dying to know what your yirgs taste like. i'm the opposite at a lower dose (15 for me) and hotter temperature (203ish). And shorter than usual.

This is the textbook question. Are you sure its bitter and not sour? plenty of people confuse the two.

July 26th, 2015, 4:38 pm

Now I am in a state of mind not sure in anything, in terms of your bitter-sour question. I actually never tried Yirg at higher dose than 14grams. Maybe I will try higher dose tomorrow, adjust the flow to get 25-30 second shot with 50% ratio, and then again go from that. I was reading couple of threads and got all confused with these two advice if bitter:

- grind coarser advice, to get faster flow
- grind finer, decrease dose to keep flow the same but to extract more caramels to mask bitters

These seems as two totally different approaches, and I am confused as a Alice in wonderland where to go....

#5: Post by **LukeFlynn** » July 26th, 2015, 4:44 pm

brianl wrote:Im dying to know what your yirgs taste like. i'm the opposite at a lower dose (15 for me) and hotter temperature (203ish). And shorter than usual.

This is the textbook question. Are you sure its bitter and not sour? plenty of people confuse the two.

It was really just with Idido and when I first got my BDB. I don't use Yirgs for spro that much... I do adore a Yirg cold brew though.. Yum.

#6: Post by **neutro** » July 27th, 2015, 10:16 am

Well it seems to me 12-13g for a double of anything is sure on the low side isn't it?

If bitterness is the mark of over-extraction, consider that this can happen if too much water goes through not enough grounds.

Personal story: struggling with over-extraction, I recently asked a local barista, who was working with the same blend as me at the moment (Pilot Big Bro in Canada), what was his recipe. He was using 17.8g in, 30.5g out, so that was a ristretto. Pulling longer shots with that blend resulted in marked bitterness and more watery shots.

So sometimes aiming for a 1:2 brew ratio, or even trying to "dilute" shots by going longer, is not the answer to bitterness. Going coarser and pulling longer might just over-extract even more --- as going coarser might just increase the water flow. There's a limit to how coarse you can go without channeling.

July 27th, 2015, 10:46 am

Doesn't sound like a ristretto to me.. seems close to 50% extraction, which is 1:2. Ristretto to me is more like 1:1, but hey, everyone has their opinions.

#8: Post by **brianl** » July 27th, 2015, 10:56 am

neutro wrote:Well it seems to me 12-13g for a double of anything is sure on the low side isn't it?

No. Depends on the size of your basket.

#9: Post by **neutro** » July 27th, 2015, 11:01 am

Well 1:2 (50%) would be 18g in, 36g out. Their recipe is about 60% extraction or about 1:1.7. So it's more ristretto than 1:2. But I agree, ristretto is more like 1:1 to 1:1.5 in my book.

My point is just that going in that direction (less water through the coffee) instead of the other can tame bitterness. Trying to "dilute" bitterness by going longer usually backfires as using too much water will over-extract.

So even staying with 12-13g in, perhaps the OP should try to aim for a 20g-22g drink instead of 24-26g. That being said I'm not familiar with the beans he's using.

#10: Post by **brianl** » July 27th, 2015, 11:09 am

neutro wrote: My point is just that going in that direction (less water through the coffee) instead of the other can tame bitterness. Trying to "dilute" bitterness by going longer usually backfires as using too much water will over-extract.

Agreed. The more water that is used, the more that is extracted. This reduces the strength but not the bitterness. Matt Perger just put out a barista hustle on this very topic yesterday.