Acidic End to Shot.. Stumped

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zanna5910
Posts: 43
Joined: 8 years ago

#1: Post by zanna5910 »

Hi all, long time lurker first time poster. I recently upgraded my equipment (upgraditis v1) and have been enjoying the hobby tremendously. I've been reading and re-reading just about everything but there is something I just can't seem to figure out why my shots tend to have a very acidic end to the cup.

Here are my stats, details, routine: I have been using a reputable local coffee roaster, current coffee is about 1 week old. My technique I'm using is basically allow 20-30 minutes warm up, then flush for about 2 seconds after the sputtering, hissing stops. Grind, Tamp, lock and brew. I am dosing 16g (about 9.5 secs on 3H right now for my grinder), I kinda swirl the portafilter to get a better distribution of grounds, give it a tap on the table, run my finger over the top if any coffee is above the rim still, then tamp to 30lb. The tamp flattens the coffee just below the ring in the basket. When weighing the shot out, I stop it at about 32g out, then there is a little run off. That usually equates to about 1.5oz. Typically about 25-30 seconds lever pull to lever stop.

I've tried all sorts of things (one at a time), but can't seem to figure it out. It seems the shot has a good balanced taste at first, you can taste the smokey, chocolatey notes up front, but after drinking about half, it, to my palate it turns acidic and sour (my first thought is like battery acid or something) and it just overpowers anything else I can taste. The lower in the cup, the more acidic it tastes. If I stir the shot, it evens the acidity out to the whole shot so its not quite as potent at the end, but still just overpowering.

Is this standard for everyone or has something gone astray? I would think the shot should taste balanced all the way thru. I thought maybe its just my palate over-reacting to the acidity, and this is what a good shot should taste like, maybe I'm just thinking it should be different. One thing I have noticed is that if I put a bit of steamed milk in as a quasi-machiato type drink, all the complexity and robustness of the coffee really come out, and you can really taste everything and the sour notes kinda blend in as good instead of bad. This leads me to believe I'm lacking sweetness...

What do you guys think? See anything that appears abnormal in the shot pull? Should the end of an espresso be acidic/sour or have I brought out something in technique that should not be there? What should I do?

Thanks all for your help!

LukeFlynn
Posts: 1293
Joined: 10 years ago

#2: Post by LukeFlynn »

I would extract a little more out of the coffee, it's always good to play with the ratios.. 1:2 can be too potent for some coffees. (Try something like 16 in 36 out). For a lot of my coffees right now I am enjoying 18 grams in with 41 yield. Furthermore, I noticed in the video you aren't using a scale. How are you reaching the conclusion of 32 grams out? Or do you usually use one?

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canuckcoffeeguy
Posts: 1286
Joined: 10 years ago

#3: Post by canuckcoffeeguy »

zanna5910 wrote:Hi all, long time lurker first time poster. I recently upgraded my equipment (upgraditis v1) and have been enjoying the hobby tremendously. I've been reading and re-reading just about everything but there is something I just can't seem to figure out why my shots tend to have a very acidic end to the cup.

Here are my stats, details, routine: I have been using a reputable local coffee roaster, current coffee is about 1 week old. My technique I'm using is basically allow 20-30 minutes warm up, then flush for about 2 seconds after the sputtering, hissing stops. Grind, Tamp, lock and brew. I am dosing 16g (about 9.5 secs on 3H right now for my grinder), I kinda swirl the portafilter to get a better distribution of grounds, give it a tap on the table, run my finger over the top if any coffee is above the rim still, then tamp to 30lb. The tamp flattens the coffee just below the ring in the basket. When weighing the shot out, I stop it at about 32g out, then there is a little run off. That usually equates to about 1.5oz. Typically about 25-30 seconds lever pull to lever stop.

I've tried all sorts of things (one at a time), but can't seem to figure it out. It seems the shot has a good balanced taste at first, you can taste the smokey, chocolatey notes up front, but after drinking about half, it, to my palate it turns acidic and sour (my first thought is like battery acid or something) and it just overpowers anything else I can taste. The lower in the cup, the more acidic it tastes. If I stir the shot, it evens the acidity out to the whole shot so its not quite as potent at the end, but still just overpowering.

Is this standard for everyone or has something gone astray? I would think the shot should taste balanced all the way thru. I thought maybe its just my palate over-reacting to the acidity, and this is what a good shot should taste like, maybe I'm just thinking it should be different. One thing I have noticed is that if I put a bit of steamed milk in as a quasi-machiato type drink, all the complexity and robustness of the coffee really come out, and you can really taste everything and the sour notes kinda blend in as good instead of bad. This leads me to believe I'm lacking sweetness...

What do you guys think? See anything that appears abnormal in the shot pull? Should the end of an espresso be acidic/sour or have I brought out something in technique that should not be there? What should I do?

Thanks all for your help!
A 20-30 minute warm-up for an E61 HX is not long enough. It takes a minimum of 45 minutes, closer to an hour to reach full temperature stability. I have an Erics thermometer on my E61 and the grouphead doesn't reach its stable idle temp until close to an hour. You can speed this up by wrapping a dish towel around the grouphead to reduce heat loss.

The boiler itself only takes about 7 to 8 minutes to reach full pressure. But, because of the E61s thermosyphon loop, the grouphead takes much longer to heat up.

Also, you might experiment with your flush routine. Perhaps you're getting a temperature drop at the end of your shot. So you could experiment with different flush n' go and flush n' wait routines.

I also have a WeMo timer so my machine is always full warmed up when I wake up. You can program different schedules for each day/scenarios, and control it remotely with your smartphone. Lots of people on HB use them and haven't had any trouble:
http://www.belkin.com/us/F7C029-Belkin/ ... 0F19CEBA5/

zanna5910 (original poster)
Posts: 43
Joined: 8 years ago

#4: Post by zanna5910 (original poster) »

LukeFlynn wrote:I would extract a little more out of the coffee, it's always good to play with the ratios.. 1:2 can be too potent for some coffees. (Try something like 16 in 36 out). For a lot of my coffees right now I am enjoying 18 grams in with 41 yield. Furthermore, I noticed in the video you aren't using a scale. How are you reaching the conclusion of 32 grams out? Or do you usually use one?
I think the problem is bigger than dilution. I have a scale, just didn't use it on this video.
canuckcoffeeguy wrote:A 20-30 minute warm-up for an E61 HX is not long enough. It takes a minimum of 45 minutes, closer to an hour to reach full temperature stability.
I will try this tonight and see what it does. Not sure if I've ever given an hour warmup for full temp stability.
canuckcoffeeguy wrote:Also, you might experiment with your flush routine. Perhaps you're getting a temperature drop at the end of your shot. So you could experiment with different flush n' go and flush n' wait routines.
I have to some newbie extent. A flushngo produced a more sour end, I've tried little waits, longer waits, longer flushes and shorter flushes, all seem to produce similar-ish results. Only once was the shot more bitter and went in the sink when i didn't flush and brewed boiling. FWIW, seems it wont flash boil again until about 3-4 minutes have passed.
canuckcoffeeguy wrote:I also have a WeMo timer so my machine is always full warmed up when I wake up.
That looks handy, thanks for the tip!

So my understanding is correct, there shouldnt be a sour/acidic finish right? Whole shot should basically be balanced?

41fivestar
Posts: 31
Joined: 8 years ago

#5: Post by 41fivestar »

If you're not stirring your espresso, try that. It'll help even out the flavor from start to finish.

James Mulryan
Posts: 137
Joined: 9 years ago

#6: Post by James Mulryan »

Maybe Eric's e61 thermometer will help you with temp consistency. Also a bottomless porta-filter might give you more even extraction.

zanna5910 (original poster)
Posts: 43
Joined: 8 years ago

#7: Post by zanna5910 (original poster) »

can you test water temp by reading stream temp going into cup to get a good guess?

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LukeFlynn
Posts: 1293
Joined: 10 years ago

#8: Post by LukeFlynn »

zanna5910 wrote:I think the problem is bigger than dilution. I have a scale, just didn't use it on this video.
Does the coffee taste slightly salty? Or have a similar effect on your palate as an abundance of salt? (Usually related to under extraction in my experience) I used to have similar problems, from my experience a few grams does make a difference.

The other suggestions are also great, I used to keep my HX on 24/7 to keep everything nice and hot, could also use a timer to lower energy costs.

zanna5910 (original poster)
Posts: 43
Joined: 8 years ago

#9: Post by zanna5910 (original poster) »

LukeFlynn wrote:Does the coffee taste slightly salty? Or have a similar effect on your palate as an abundance of salt?
No, I dont really pick up any saltiness, just a real, mouth filling sour acidic taste, sometimes its less than others, but the end (last 3/4 to 1/2 ounce) is usually acidic. I may suspect the warm up time as a potential reason to the sourness as well.

Anyone have a Profitec 500? How long do you allow it to warm up, what do you dose, and how do you flush? Dont see alot of info about users using it. I feel like I'm pretty close but have overlooked something to cause this.

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another_jim
Team HB
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#10: Post by another_jim »

41fivestar wrote:If you're not stirring your espresso, try that. It'll help even out the flavor from start to finish.
+1 Swirl your shot -- you're drinking crema first, then coffee
Jim Schulman

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