12 grams not much while reading the 101 adjust dose and grind
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- Posts: 17
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Hi all,
I've been annoyed by my espresso for a long time now. After investigating why i get this "in your face" taste. i started weighing my dose. and it seemed i dose 22 gr+ for a normal double.
I started reading the Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste and starting with the first test. 12gr to set your finest setting. but on my vario the most thigh setting (even after re-calibrating) 12gr seems not much in the standard basket. its after tamp half from bottom to ridge. i reach the 25grams of coffee in under 10sec. isen't 12 not a little low for a double basket?
Using: Rocket Cellini
Tried stock basket and VST 17gr basket.
Fresh coffee roasted 1.5 week ago.
Also tried another that was roasted only a week ago.
14gr is still considered as the normal dose for a double?
I've been annoyed by my espresso for a long time now. After investigating why i get this "in your face" taste. i started weighing my dose. and it seemed i dose 22 gr+ for a normal double.
I started reading the Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste and starting with the first test. 12gr to set your finest setting. but on my vario the most thigh setting (even after re-calibrating) 12gr seems not much in the standard basket. its after tamp half from bottom to ridge. i reach the 25grams of coffee in under 10sec. isen't 12 not a little low for a double basket?
Using: Rocket Cellini
Tried stock basket and VST 17gr basket.
Fresh coffee roasted 1.5 week ago.
Also tried another that was roasted only a week ago.
14gr is still considered as the normal dose for a double?
- another_jim
- Team HB
- Posts: 13872
- Joined: 19 years ago
12 grams in a regular basket will produce roughly the same flow as 15 to 16 in VST 18 basket. If you get faster, you are channeling and need to get a bottomless PF to train
Jim Schulman
- happycat
- Posts: 1464
- Joined: 11 years ago
At 22g, I suspect you were using way too much coffee in order to slow down your pours, rather than using a properly distributed bed of coffee.kayintveen wrote:Hi all,
I've been annoyed by my espresso for a long time now. After investigating why i get this "in your face" taste. i started weighing my dose. and it seemed i dose 22 gr+ for a normal double.
I started reading the Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste and starting with the first test. 12gr to set your finest setting. but on my vario the most thigh setting (even after re-calibrating) 12gr seems not much in the standard basket. its after tamp half from bottom to ridge. i reach the 25grams of coffee in under 10sec. isen't 12 not a little low for a double basket?
Using: Rocket Cellini
Tried stock basket and VST 17gr basket.
Fresh coffee roasted 1.5 week ago.
Also tried another that was roasted only a week ago.
14gr is still considered as the normal dose for a double?
If you're using a VST, try 15-16 gms at the lowest. I don't think it will work well with less.
You haven't mentioned what your grinds look like (chunky?). Try giving them a few stirs with a chopstick and even them out before tamping (Weiss Distribution Technique). Only tamp once and don't tap or bang the portafilter after tamping.
If you're able to pre infuse the coffee and let it soak a bit, that can compensate a bit for imperfect distribution/tamping.
LMWDP #603
- boar_d_laze
- Posts: 2058
- Joined: 17 years ago
Don't worry about generic dosing advise. The "normal dose" in a VST or Strada basket is determined by the basket size. For instance, the normal dose in a 17g basket is (wait for it) 17g. The normal dose is a helluva good starting point. If, after the other variables are tweaked, you can start screwing around with dose. But for the meantime, don't try and outsmart the basket.
You told us about your 22g dose, but didn't mention the mass of the shot. We don't know the brew ratio; and that would be helpful.
Getting back to "in your face," your coffee is most likely under-saturated; i.e., you're pulling something closer to ristretto than normale at least partly as a result of too large a dose. Try cutting down to a 17g dose without any other changes and see if that doesn't begin to take care of the problem. If it doesn't, we'll take it from there. For now, I'm loathe to fix what ain't broke.
BDL
You told us about your 22g dose, but didn't mention the mass of the shot. We don't know the brew ratio; and that would be helpful.
Getting back to "in your face," your coffee is most likely under-saturated; i.e., you're pulling something closer to ristretto than normale at least partly as a result of too large a dose. Try cutting down to a 17g dose without any other changes and see if that doesn't begin to take care of the problem. If it doesn't, we'll take it from there. For now, I'm loathe to fix what ain't broke.
BDL
Drop a nickel in the pot Joe. Takin' it slow. Waiter, waiter, percolator
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- Posts: 17
- Joined: 11 years ago
Ok. But the main question is. 12gr gives a lot of space between the shower head and the coffee. Also when removing the puck it's pretty slushy and not even to be called a puck
I wondered if this ident a problem since I have a. Hard time getting the 12gr in 25 sec as stated in the description of the espresso 101 article.
I wondered if this ident a problem since I have a. Hard time getting the 12gr in 25 sec as stated in the description of the espresso 101 article.
- another_jim
- Team HB
- Posts: 13872
- Joined: 19 years ago
This is true whenever there is headspace; and it is not a problem. Unlike what most people think, it is how classic Italian espresso is made, and what the puck will look like.kayintveen wrote:Ok. But the main question is. 12gr gives a lot of space between the shower head and the coffee.
As a matter of skill and technique, you are seeking to get the ability to produce a very restricted flow from twelve grams in a conventional double (not VST) basket. It should be an ooze, not a flow; producing about 15 to 18 grams of coffee in about 30 seconds. If you cannot do this, buy a bottomless portafilter and work on your distribution and packing technique.
Most espresso blends will not require this treatment; but an old style Italian Robusta blend, or a very lightly roasted African coffee, could well taste best when done like this.
Jim Schulman
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ok the problem is clearly i cannot grind fine enough with my Vario.
I just recalibrated following baratza's method. and i do hear the motor working when its macro at finest and micro at half. So it should be fine.
Also the grind got a little clumpy...
Should a grinder be capable of choking the espresso machine with 12gr? and basic double basket (i left the vst out for now) And i got a bottomless
I just recalibrated following baratza's method. and i do hear the motor working when its macro at finest and micro at half. So it should be fine.
Also the grind got a little clumpy...
Should a grinder be capable of choking the espresso machine with 12gr? and basic double basket (i left the vst out for now) And i got a bottomless
- boar_d_laze
- Posts: 2058
- Joined: 17 years ago
Why are you making things harder than they need to be?
From here it looks a lot less like you're trying to fix a problem with your taste profiles than pushing the limits of your equipment beyond where they can successfully go. The FAQ is helpful, but it was not written on tablets of stone. What works with some setups won't work with others.
You have to ask yourself whether you're trying to fix (and learn to fix in the future) a problem with your flavor profiles, or whether you're trying to brew the world's best 12g double on a setup which clearly does not want to cooperate.
While I can't swear to it, it's pretty damn likely that your "in the face" coffee is that way because it's under-extracted. If my suggestions lack some specificity, it's because your description of your technique does as well. Try these things, each one of which will allow for greater extraction, one at a time, adding a new step if the previous one doesn't solve the problem:
BDL
From here it looks a lot less like you're trying to fix a problem with your taste profiles than pushing the limits of your equipment beyond where they can successfully go. The FAQ is helpful, but it was not written on tablets of stone. What works with some setups won't work with others.
You have to ask yourself whether you're trying to fix (and learn to fix in the future) a problem with your flavor profiles, or whether you're trying to brew the world's best 12g double on a setup which clearly does not want to cooperate.
While I can't swear to it, it's pretty damn likely that your "in the face" coffee is that way because it's under-extracted. If my suggestions lack some specificity, it's because your description of your technique does as well. Try these things, each one of which will allow for greater extraction, one at a time, adding a new step if the previous one doesn't solve the problem:
- First, dose less, starting with 16-18g (a 25% reduction) -- NOT 12g. If after going through the other steps your coffee is still under-extracted you can reduce the dose a little more, but stay conservative. The idea is to move in increments which make a definite difference, not to enter a parallel universe through an espresso warp. And note, if you have to dose lighter than the Italian standard of 14g for a double, there are other issues which need to be addressed;
- Second, brew hotter. The smart way is to go in small increments of around 2-3*F, and pull back if and when the coffee begins to taste bitter. Don't pull shots faster than your machine's rebound time. Hotter water will extract faster than cooler, but there are other consequences. The best you can do by adjusting temperature is balancing sours and bitters, and when you're there it's time to quit messing with temp;
- Third, draw further into the blonde, without going too far into the translucent. Drawing more water through coffee is as sure a way to cure under-extraction as there is. We're just doing the other things first to create a solid, reliable baseline. Depending on where your machine is located, you may find it easier to watch the extraction by observing the top of the pour in the cup, rather than trying to eyeball the stream as it emerges from the pf. The crema should not get any lighter than tawny with at least some mottling; and
- Fourth, if and only if your shots run too fast, grind finer, but don't push the grind too far. A 34g double normale, pulled from a 17g dose, should take no shorter than 20 seconds and no longer than 35 seconds. If you're in that time range, and your shots taste and look good, they don't really need much more adjustment.
BDL
Drop a nickel in the pot Joe. Takin' it slow. Waiter, waiter, percolator
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Thats one awesome post mate. thanks! Just got myself some tools to calibrate my Vario again (couldn't find the 2mm allen screw i used earlier).. But now it works awesome.
Result, 16g coffee better extraction, even first time i got a normal extraction from a bottomless portalfilter. (before always channeling like crazy). I had to use the Weiss Distribution method because of a clumpy grind. Taste is totally different. While still a little salty/sourly. I think this is a good starting point to work further from... Working temp is a little harder since i work with a fairly simple espresso machine (Rocket Celinni classic).. I have the Chris coffee temp mod on it. and i saw it was extracting at fromt 98.8 tot 97.2 so i believe i have to deduct 1.5c for a accurate temp.
Result, 16g coffee better extraction, even first time i got a normal extraction from a bottomless portalfilter. (before always channeling like crazy). I had to use the Weiss Distribution method because of a clumpy grind. Taste is totally different. While still a little salty/sourly. I think this is a good starting point to work further from... Working temp is a little harder since i work with a fairly simple espresso machine (Rocket Celinni classic).. I have the Chris coffee temp mod on it. and i saw it was extracting at fromt 98.8 tot 97.2 so i believe i have to deduct 1.5c for a accurate temp.
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12g is way too little. Personally on avg I'm at least at 16g-18g depending on bean, but generally I've found 16g in the stock double basket on my machine to produce consistent shots even with different beans/roast, sure I'll adjust the grinder, but I keep the dose the same.