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Titan Grinder Project - Page 11

Postby HB on Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:44 am

RapidCoffee wrote:One final post before I pack it in for the night. When I got home today, I found a wooden box awaiting me from H-B's newest sponsor... Inside was a bag of PT's Bella Vita, a northern Italian style espresso blend, and wow! 12oz of Ethiopia Yergacheffe Biloya. :D

Many thanks to Jeff and the rest of the crew at PT's Coffee Roasting for their contribution to the TGP!

Nice! As a reminder, PT's Coffee is offering 20% off through July 1st to HB members. Just enter promo code HB ROCKS at checkout.
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Postby ntwkgestapo on Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:29 am

Ken, you have reinforced my wish for a Cimbali Grinder! I've always liked the Jr. grinder for it's adjustability and size (altho I've got OLD kitchen cabinets with over 24 in of space!). I'll stay with my little hand grinder (and do some playing with my SBux Grinder(s) now that I have a better understanding of them) until the Max/Jr grinder comes out (by then I should have recouped the spare bux to afford one!)..

Great test and THANKS to ALL for doing this Titan Grinder project!
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Postby cannonfodder on Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:38 am

After a few weeks of use I decided to take the burrs off the Kony to see how dirty it was inside. The Kony opens up like every Mazzer I have used. You simply remove the hopper and unscrew the upper burr carriage.

I was surprised by how much coffee the grinder held onto, there were even some chunks sitting in the grind chamber.
Image

The upper burr was also caked with a relatively thick layer of coffee. A large chunk fell off as I was unscrewing the carrier.
Image

I used a stiff brush to clean the upper and lower burrs and used the air compressor to blow out the lower assembly. Getting all the caked on fines cleaned out is tedious and in the end I settled on 'pretty clean'.
Image Image

The cutting surfaces of the burrs are still very sharp. I had only run around 5 pounds of coffee through the Kony. That is barely enough coffee to break it in, these grinders were designed to chew up that much coffee in a day and will take years of home use before the burrs are dulled enough to replace. I actually shaved some skin off a finger while cleaning the burrs.

Image
Lower Burr

Image
Upper Burr
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Postby RapidCoffee on Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:55 pm

Ken Fox wrote:In actual use, the first thing I noticed with my new Max grinders was that it seemed that grind adjustments were easier, and needed less often. By this I mean, that changing in between different coffees, or adapting to changes in coffee as it aged, or dealing with weather and humidity changes -- all of which normally require grinder setting adjustments on the Junior and Cadet grinders, seemed to require less adjusting or in some cases no adjusting in order to use the Max to get good espresso shots with proper time/volume relationships. In addition, the "quality" of the grinds are different; from the Junior, they are like grains of sand, but from the Max, even with robust doser thwacking, one gets small clumps. These are not "bad clumps," however, and the basket dose is easily distributed and packed, with no added channeling evident on a bottomless portafilter. I also noticed a small and subjective improvement in shot quality with the Max, but of course that sort of conclusion is pretty easy to talk yourself into, especially as a means of justifying a recent (and expensive) purchase.

Personally speaking, I find these results interesting however from my perspective, after using the Max daily for more than a month, I think the most persuasive reason to buy one is the increased certainty of getting a good shot without excessive fiddling with grinder settings. Although I had made the observation about the setting being less critical on the Max before I set up this tasting trial, the proof of that observation came as I used the grinders in this testing. Before my friend Bob came over for the tasting, I dialed the grinders in with the Rocket Coffee Roasters Classic Espresso blend. It took SIX double shots, 5 of which were sink shots, to get the Cadet dialed in. With the Max, there was one sink shot, one mediocre shot, and beautiful shot for the 3rd. Midway through the actual tasting when we switched the grinder machine pairs, I had to toss one set of shots because the Cadet needed to be adjusted to go from the vibe machine to the rotary. Not only that, but I needed to make small adjustments on the Cadet a couple of other times during the 10 shot trial. I never adjusted the Max, not even once, from start to finish of the testing including the switchover from pairing it with the rotary to the vibe.


My experience with the Robur and MXK conicals echoes your observations. These conical burr grinders make it easy, almost effortless, to dial in the correct grind adjustment. Coincidentally, it also took me only three shots to dial in each conical, beginning with an overly fine factory setting that choked the pour. New beans often required only one grind adjustment.

The grind adjustment seems more finicky on my flat burr Super Jolly, and it's not as easy to obtain a "pretty" extraction. Grinds are clumpier, to be expected from a doserless grinder. But it should be noted that the burrs on this grinder are two years old. Your comparisons are more valid because the grinders match up better.

Taste is another issue. The conical burr grinders produce a different taste profile, not necessarily better.

Believe it or not, these cuppings comprise a lot of hard, tedious work. So a big thanks to Ken and Bob for performing these experiments.
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Postby Ken Fox on Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:20 pm

RapidCoffee wrote:My experience with the Robur and MXK conicals echoes your observations. These conical burr grinders make it easy, almost effortless, to dial in the correct grind adjustment. Coincidentally, it also took me only three shots to dial in each conical, beginning with an overly fine factory setting that choked the pour. New beans often required only one grind adjustment.

The grind adjustment seems more finicky on my flat burr Super Jolly, and it's not as easy to obtain a "pretty" extraction. Grinds are clumpier, to be expected from a doserless grinder. But it should be noted that the burrs on this grinder are two years old. Your comparisons are more valid because the grinders match up better.

Taste is another issue. The conical burr grinders produce a different taste profile, not necessarily better.

Believe it or not, these cuppings comprise a lot of hard, tedious work. So a big thanks to Ken and Bob for performing these experiments.


Thanks for your kind words, John. One reason why it took so many grind adjustments for me to nail the grind (on both grinders) was that I decided to change the dose downwards a bit, but in a reproducible way, at the same time I was using a coffee new to me (the Rocket Coffee Roasters Classic blend). I decided that distributing and fingersweeping to a flat basket was the way to go, instead of my usual "mound" on top which adds an extra couple of grams. Any student of the factors in shot making knows instinctively that the most powerful factor is the dose in the basket, which dwarfs tamp and even grind in determining the shot parameters.

As in the freezing experiment, I did all the basket and machine preparation, and Bob's job was simply to stop the extractions at the first sign of blonding. Since I did all the dosing, packing, flushing, and starting of shots, this eliminated the possible problems that could come with two different persons preparing the shots. Once I was sure the pours were proceeding normally, say after 10 seconds, I went to the tasting table and turned my back on the machines, leaving the balance of the extractions to Bob's discretion.

One huge PITA every time I've done these types of trials is getting the machines set up to produce shots at essentially the same temperatures. I believe I have (finally) figured out why, as detailed in another post on the Gear forum having to do with boiler fill levels. I'm going to standardize those consistently at a lower level, and hopefully this will eliminate one huge time waster that has preceeded all of my simultaneous blind tasting trials.

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Postby another_jim on Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:41 pm

Ken Fox wrote:I'm going to quote from a couple of paragraphs from Jim's analysis without going into any of the numerical underpinnings, which I am going to let Jim explain for himself in a subsequent post


Ken only did 10 shots, tasting 6 himself, and having Bob taste four. However, since the design was balanced, and the preference for the Max was strong enough, the result edged into statistical significance. I'm pasting in the report below for the one or two people who can tolerate the excruciating boredom of fully presented statistics:


             DATASET:
             --------

#     MA    TA    PR    FA    CR    MF
01    ro    ke    -2    -1    +1    -2
02    ro    ke    +2    -1    +2    +2
03    vi    ke    -2    +2    -1    -2
04    vi    ke    -2    -1    -2    -2
05    ro    ke    -2     0    +1    -1
06    vi    ke    +2    +2    -1    +2
07    ro    bo    +2    +3    +2    +2
08    ro    bo    +2    +3    +2    +3
09    vi    bo    +1    +1    +1    +1
10    vi    bo    -2    -3    -2    -2

Each row represents a pair of shots, one ground on the Max, one on the Cimbali Cadet (same as the Junior, with new burrs), presented to the taster simultaneously and unidentified. The numerical scores are comparative. Negative indicates a preference for the Cadet, positive for the Max. 3 is a large preference, 2 a distinct preference, 1 a mild preference. Tasters are instructed to avoid 0, no preference, if at all possible.

MA is the machine on which the Max shot was pulled: "vi" for vibe, "ro" for rotary. The other machine was used for the cadet shot.
TA is the taster for that pair of shots: "ke" for Ken, "bo" for Bob
PR is overall preference, -3 to +3, +ve means better for the Max grinder
FA is flavor/aroma strength, -3 to +3, +ve means better for the Max grinder
CR is crema appearance, -3 to +3, +ve means better for the Max grinder
MF is mouthfeel, -3 to +3, +ve means better for the Max grinder





              ANOVA SUMMARIES
              ---------------

HOW TO READ THE SUMMARIES

The block labelled "coefficients" shows the effect of each of the variables:

-- The variable labelled "(Intercept)" shows how much the Max (+ve) or Cadet (-ve) was preferred **after** all the other variables are eliminated. This is the paydirt variable.

-- The variable labelled "mavi" shows the difference the machine made. If it is negative, Cadet shots taste better on the vibe than the rotary, if positive, Max shots taste better on the vibe than the rotary.   

-- The variable labelled "take" shows the difference the taster made. If it is negative, Ken likes the Cadet more than Bob, if it is positive, Ken likes the Max more than Bob

-- I could explain the interaction term "mavi:take," but your head would explode. It's in there to remove the remaining extraneous factor from the payoff variable, the intercept. It is not meaningful by itself.

Of the columns, the "Estimate" and the Pr(>|t|) are important:

-- Estimate is the degree to which the Max is preferred. This is in the same scale as the original data.

-- Pr(>|t|) shows how often this result could occur by chance if there were no differences at all. A value less than 0.05 (5%) is mildly significant. A value less than 0.01 (1%) is very significant.

I have left out the statistics for the model as a whole, since the purpose is to get the individual variable's affects, not to predict the exact tasting outcome.


OVERALL PREFERENCE

Coefficients:
            Estimate Std. Error t value Pr(>|t|)
(Intercept)    2.000      1.467   1.363    0.222
mavi          -2.500      2.075  -1.205    0.274
take          -2.667      1.894  -1.408    0.209
mavi:take      2.500      2.679   0.933    0.387



FLAVOR/AROMA STRENGTH

Coefficients:
            Estimate Std. Error t value Pr(>|t|) 
(Intercept)    3.000      1.106   2.714   0.0349 *
mavi          -4.000      1.563  -2.558   0.0430 *
take          -3.667      1.427  -2.569   0.0424 *
mavi:take      5.667      2.018   2.807   0.0309 *



CREMA APPEARANCE

Coefficients:
            Estimate Std. Error t value Pr(>|t|) 
(Intercept)   2.0000     0.6972   2.869   0.0285 *
mavi         -2.5000     0.9860  -2.535   0.0444 *
take         -0.6667     0.9001  -0.741   0.4869 
mavi:take    -0.1667     1.2729  -0.131   0.9001 



MOUTHFEEL

Coefficients:
            Estimate Std. Error t value Pr(>|t|)
(Intercept)    2.500      1.424   1.756    0.130
mavi          -3.000      2.014  -1.490    0.187
take          -2.833      1.838  -1.541    0.174
mavi:take      2.667      2.600   1.026    0.345





ANALYSIS

The Max did a better job in all the categories. For the significance of the result see below.

There is a big surprise in the "mavi" variable; add or subtract it from the intercept term to see what I mean. In essence, the Max spanked the Cadet when it was paired with the rotary, and did slightly worse when paired with the vibe. Bob liked the Max a bit more than Ken did. The direction of the coefficients are consistent across all four of the taste attributes.

This outcome is consistent across all the taste categories. This consistency adds to the significance of the result, since if the result were just chance, it would be like flipping 4 heads in a row. This can be seen when all 4 taste categories are used in a single analysis

A: Done so that there are 40 data points:

Coefficients:
            Estimate Std. Error t value Pr(>|t|)   
(Intercept)    2.3750     0.5577   4.258 0.000141 ***
mavi          -3.0000     0.7887  -3.804 0.000533 ***
take          -2.4583     0.7200  -3.414 0.001598 **
mavi:take      2.6667     1.0183   2.619 0.012829 * 


B: Done with 10 data points, scores added together and divided by 4

Coefficients:
            Estimate Std. Error t value Pr(>|t|) 
(Intercept)    2.375      1.032   2.302   0.0609 .
mavi          -3.000      1.459  -2.056   0.0855 .
take          -2.458      1.332  -1.846   0.1144 
mavi:take      2.667      1.883   1.416   0.2066 


CONCLUSION

My conclusion is that the Max grinds an immediately perceivable better shot on the rotary Cimbali than the Cadet or Junior grinder. On the Vibe machine, the edge disappears completely. Whether this conclusion about the Max applies to all rotary and vibe machines is unknown. However, the results warn that one needs to check for  an interaction between conical grind quality and the pump being used.
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Postby another_jim on Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:01 pm

RapidCoffee wrote:One final post before I pack it in for the night. When I got home today, I found a wooden box awaiting me from H-B's newest sponsor... Inside was a bag of PT's Bella Vita, a northern Italian style espresso blend, and wow! 12oz of Ethiopia Yergacheffe Biloya. :D

Many thanks to Jeff and the rest of the crew at PT's Coffee Roasting for their contribution to the TGP!


I'd like to join into the thanks. This has got to be the most impressive packaging for coffee I ever got. Talk about taking the coffee as wine analogy seriously, here's coffee shipped in a claret box.

Also, a long sleeved tee is always welcome

Finally, and most importantly: the actual bag is the best I've seen -- strong, with a wire seal that won't fall off, lots of airtight layers, and a one way valve. Roasters, if you think your coffee is great, this is the bag for it.

I'll report on the coffee once I get a chance to drink some. As luck would have it, my Eva Solo and Zoshirushi came in today as well, so I'm as handsomely set up for brewed as for espresso.
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Postby cpl593h on Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:21 pm

If you testers ever feel strung out of your minds from taste testing, bananas offer a nice comedown from too much espresso.
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Postby Java Man on Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:23 pm

cpl593h wrote:If you testers ever feel strung out of your minds from taste testing, bananas offer a nice comedown from too much espresso.


I think we need to set up some double blind tests to verify this. :wink:

Rick
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Postby Ken Fox on Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:02 pm

Java Man wrote:I think we need to set up some double blind tests to verify this. :wink:

Rick


this works especially well if you are so hyped up from caffeine that you start scratching under your armpits and grunting, like an orangatan.

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