I am not bad mouthing any machine, just as with the other reviews the positives and negatives must be brought to light so anyone that decides to make a purchase based on the supplied information gets a realistic experience. Just like pointing out the plastic gauges and extra vibration noise on the VBM, picking on a screw under the drip tray must mean that the rest of the machine is pretty solid. I believe the Elektra, Gaggia, LaPav, a LaPav like Olympia, I think I remember seeing on the La Peppina and others, but again that is nitpicking.

It is the holiday season, there is a life outside of cyberspace so the going is a little slower than during the off season. At least it is for me. Comparing a lever to a pump, you have to have a benchmark to compare to. I do not have a LM at home so my benchmark comparison is against an Elektra A3, and I am a long time lever user. I just did not bother with a LMWDP number.

I have been using the levers almost exclusively since they arrived. My focus is moving onto the Factory/LaPav machine right now. I pulled one of my best shots in some time using it with some twin cities espresso from Counter Culture yesterday. Absolutely mind-blowing, and with a single lever pull, I even snapped a photo before I sipped it down.

cannonfodder wrote:I think I remember seeing on the La Peppina...

Same kind of a drip tray insert, but no screw.

Greg, "mogogear's" list of lever machines:

http://www.home-barista.com/forum...s-t3600.html#38394

Fullsack wrote:The reviewers, admittedly, don't have much lever machine experience.

Hey Fullsack:

I personally find your comments pretty insulting. As a reviewer I'll post something when I think it's useful and I can produce some new knowledge. For now, I have one lever machine in my possession. I've written about it as accurately as I can. I've learned a bunch about it, and I think what I wrote is fine.

I think your argument that we don't have much lever experience is bull, and I personally think it's probably a good thing if we can look at extractions critically without a lot of baggage. Unless you can point to references that show otherwise, I think coffee and water are dead, and they don't give a ratsass what device shoves the dead water through the dead coffee - lever, pump, or banjo. We taste, we try to improve, we try to correlate taste to other physical clues that we are doing things correctly. In my observations, I've chopped a portafilter so that I can look at the extraction viscosity, flow symmetry and color. I know what brew pressures are produced by the Lusso. I've also done a very reasonable thing IMO by comparing the shots from the Lusso to shots produced by the current state of the art in espresso machinery. And I've put some small effort into learning what it is that causes the difference. I think that all of these things are within the bounds of a smackdown. And when I get a free moment, I'm going to build a thermofilter for the Lusso and I'll learn some more about it.

Regarding the Lusso, and First Line - Jim's really sticking his neck out because he handed me a machine with NO groundrules on what or how I'm supposed to evaluate it. That means to me that he trusts me to be fair, and that he believes that he is selling a good machine. I think I've been pretty on the mark here. If you want fluff, go read some consumer reviews that are written by folks who just purchased their first espresso machine 3 days ago. If you want substance, I'll report back to you when I get something new.

-Greg

gscace wrote:I personally find your comments pretty insulting.

No insult intended, just an opinion. Review debates are just that, debates. I'm right and you are insulting me isn't a debate.

peacecup wrote:arrival of a new nestling.

PC

I dunno, I probably missed this at some point, but just in case it's really really recent and there is room for yet another one, I'll just say: C O N G R A T U L A T I O N S . I can't imagine a more peaceful nest than the one you and yours are providing.

Susan

I think this review is going well. I would however like to see some more of the newbie reviewers thoughts as they climb towards the peaks of the learning curve. I have had my machine for almost a year now and am just beginning to feel like I know her manual levered ways. The new to lever reviewers would really benefit from hearing feedback on using their machines. I cannot even begin to explain just how helpful the lever forum was at bringing me up to speed.

So to the never used a lever crowd, please post your thoughts and experiences. It will facilitate your rapid learning. Every single one of the lever users started at a similar point to where you are right now. No one, not even the long time lever fiends, was born with extensive knowledge of the inner workings of levers. Such things are grown, not born. There is a wealth of knowledge and ideas to be gathered from other users, so please don't let newbie status keep you from posting!

We may seem like an elitist crowd at times, but I have found most regular lever forum users to be helpful and at least marginally gentle to the noob.

POST AWAY!

HB wrote:Greg and John haven't used levers much, but they're highly skilled baristas and well qualified to evaluate espressos. I intentionally include a mix of experience levels in the reviews, though it's not always explicitly called out (e.g., sometimes I'll loan out equipment to "newbie" locals for confirmation of my findings).

I, for one, appreciate this. I have zero experience on levers so it's good to get a "newbie" point of view. I've only had a "real" espresso machine for a year, so it's also good to get all the background information on how levers work, etc.

I also appreciate this forum, "The Bench". In a way, it allows any interested HB member to have their say in the review process and get a behind-the-scenes peak at how the final reviews are put together. In essence, the final product is a cumulative effort between the official test reviewers and other posters that make suggestions, prompt questions, and otherwise give the reviewer a different perspective. I think this probably helps the review to be much more thorough and answer questions we all might have in advance.

However, I get kind of frustrated when threads in this forum get away from the original topic or end up being overly concerned (my opinion, of course) with minutiae. That's why I'm content--for the most part--with sitting back and watching as the information unfolds. We're lucky that we get that privilege rather than having to wait until the final review is posted on the homepage.

Justin

You should grind about 12grams of coffee for the double basket.

I've actually found that a small amount of overdosing helps a lot...

It's a real stretch to call 12g overdosing (or even updosing).

This Pavoni must be a pre millenium model. On my millenium it is no problem to get around 15-16g in the double basket. Mind you this is with a larger 51mm group and deeper basket by far.

Something that might be a good idea for the reviewers using this older model is to get an Elektra Microcasa a Leva double basket to use with the pavoni. It allows more coffee to be used, possibly bringing the ability to make true doubles. Something to think about.