timo888 wrote:emphasis added

If you take a look at my Initial Impressions of the Lusso thread, you will see a video of a two-pull extraction, where the first pull was allowed to run to completion, and was then followed by a full second pull which also ran to completion. Recocking the lever does not "play hell with the extraction" if the barista tamps very lightly.

Regards
Timo

I tried several variations on the multi pull but never got good results. I will try the light tamp and full pull to see if it improves the extraction. There could be a difference in the group design between the Elektra and Lusso that favors the second pull. I am still a newbie with the Microcasa and make no pretense of having mastered the machine, only a solid base understanding. The multi pull may just take a little more experimentation and experience to master than I have at this time.

timo888 wrote:emphasis added

If you take a look at my Initial Impressions of the Lusso thread, you will see a video of a two-pull extraction, where the first pull was allowed to run to completion, and was then followed by a full second pull which also ran to completion. Recocking the lever does not "play hell with the extraction" if the barista tamps very lightly.

Regards
Timo

I am a light tamper actually. Your second pull has a lot less viscosity than the first one does. A bottomless portafilter will show you how unruly the extraction becomes unless you play games with workarounds. I think the Lusso would be a better machine if the swept volume of the piston was larger.

-Greg

So far, my experience with the Lusso is consistent with Dave's, i.e., the extraction quality suffers on a second pull. It's not always evident from watching the pour from a stock portafilter, but obvious from the negative impact on the taste and body. In my limited experience with the Lusso, the visuals of the pour suffer less from the second pull than the Elektra Microcasa a Leva. The taste impacts however are similar. An easy taste test to confirm is a split shot (first and second pull). The second pull tastes dull and thin.

Have any of you three pulled the first and second pulls into different identical demitasses and blind tasted them?

PC

HB wrote:The second pull tastes dull and thin.

The final third (or the second half, if you're dividing the shot into two sections as you are doing here with the Lusso) of an extraction from a pump machine is relatively dull and thin too, compared to the initial stage extraction. The product in the cup is a blend of emulsions, and the "dull and thin" tastes of the later stages offset the brightness of the early stages. The effect in the cup is a smoothness. For example, S.O. coffees that become strident when pulled at 9 bar fare well on the Lusso at 6+ bar, tapering to 3 bar. Moreover, a finer grind, a very light tamp (and by that I mean hardly any tamp at all), and slight updosing can make the latter stages of the extraction brighter and more intense, if the Lusso's normale smoothness is not to your liking and the ristretto is your baseline for comparison.

Regards
Timo

gscace wrote:I think the Lusso would be a better machine if the swept volume of the piston was larger.

It has taken me quite a while to get a good feel for my PV Export. I used to think that the common darker blends are not well suited for the PV, and that the group favors SOs. However, a large dose (12-14gm) and a short pull (1 stroke plus a Fellini preinfuse) can produce deep, rich, very sweet and satisfying ristrettos from these darker blends.

The PV group also does a beautiful job with singles. I generally prefer a slower shot from the single basket than with the double basket. I think that Greg's comment about a larger volume is addressed by the twin-group Lusso. I would brew single-pull singles exclusively on my Export if not for the wait for the group to de-pressurize. With 2 groups on a Lusso, I would be content to build singles either to serve as singles or to brew in immediate succession as serve as a double (admittedly a 1z double).

I'm not sure why, but I find that an Americano brewed on a spring-lever is even tastier than when brewed on my pump machine. Anyone else notice this?

Mark

I think that many pump machine aficionados would be shocked to learn how little tamping is required for ANY of the lever machines. I am a manual lever user and I find that tamping with any more pressure than the tamper itself creates will terminally affect the shot. Shoot there's another sink shot!

I like to think of the light tamp as a lessened repetitive motion strain. The less force the better for later in life. Of course using the lever itself is a repetitive motion strain. Damn, it sounded good in my head! Oh well, carpal tunnel here I come!

On either the MCaL or PVL, I personally prefer the espresso created by a 3-4 second pre-infusion and a single pull. I can live with the short volume shot. Quality over quantity.

Kaffee Bitte wrote:I think that many pump machine aficionados would be shocked to learn how little tamping is required for ANY of the lever machines. I am a manual lever user and I find that tamping with any more pressure that the tamper itself creates will terminally affect the shot.

Agreed & "shocked". I use to grind coarser & tamp the #30 on the Micro Casa a Leva(MCaL). During this learning period with the Ponte Vecchio Lusso (PVL) the finer grind and lighter tamp among other things yielding a better cup. Have slowly been increasing the grind fineness & decreasing the tamp pressure with positive results on the MCaL. Not yet at timo's light tamper pressure.

So far, going over to the lever only side has changed two major concepts. First the 8-10 second pre-infusion. 3-4 seconds has produced consistently better shots. 2nd the #30 tamp is not a requirement. Not a technique concept but an element I no longer get hung up on. Volume. With both these lever machines in my opinion you don't need to pull a 60ml shot from a double basket in 23-30sec to produce a tasty espresso. Thanks to the people on this forum for showing me the correct path to a great lever pulled espresso.

frege wrote:I have adopted the short (3-4 second) preinfusion that you use, and for good, I think. My results have been great.

Frege,

Your video is quite good. I still have a question. Why do you prefer the short pre-infusion? More precisely what do you taste in the short pre-infused shot that you prefer over the 10-sec pi shot? I am planning to try the short PI but would like to know what taste difference to expect.

Also in your video may I suggest that when you do another you include video of you in the actual pull moving of the lever. I suspect new users would like to see your actual movements. EG: how do you grasp the machine? In my pulls I have a two-fisted-love grasp of Tebaldi when we make an espresso. I hold the pf and the lever throughout the entire process.

KS

In my opinion 14-15 g of coffee to 0.5 oz of espresso (i.e. one pull) is too great a brew ratio. The choice therefore is to lower the dose and take one pull, which many of you seem to like better, or to dose fuller and take multiple pulls. I personally don't like smaller doses in the double basket, so if I want a one-pull shot I use the 7-g single basket.

Pulling good two- or three-pull 15g, 1-1.5 oz. doppios on the Ponte Vecchio requires a little practice, and experimenting with the grind, dose, and tamp. But simply giving up is not an option.

PC

narc wrote:First the 8-10 second pre-infusion. 3-4 seconds has produced consistently better shots. 2nd the #30 tamp is not a requirement. Not a technique concept but an element I no longer get hung up on. Volume. With both these lever machines in my opinion you don't need to pull a 60ml shot from a double basket in 23-30sec to produce a tasty espresso. Thanks to the people on this forum for showing me the correct path to a great lever pulled espresso.

I believe you're on your way to espresso-freedom. And free-dom ta-a-a-a-stes of re-ali-ty.

Pressure-stat setting, dose, grind, tamp (not to mention depth of roast and freshness of roast and the types of bean used in the blend and their proportion in the blend) can all have a substantial effect upon the preinfusion, just as they have an effect upon the infusion proper. With four variables (at the very least), that's quite a few combinations. Let's take the simple extremes (which in their wisdom the ancients advise us to avoid):

a) if the p-stat is set low (~ .7 - .9 bar for the Lusso) and you have given the basket an immoderately large dose, have ground very finely and tamped with considerable force, then the ground coffee won't be saturated from the force of the boiler alone, no matter how long you might wait;

b) if the p-stat is set high (1.3 - 1.5 bar for the Lusso) and you have given the basket an immoderately small dose, have ground very coarsely and tamped very lightly, then the ground coffee will be thoroughly saturated and you'll see not just drops but a small stream falling into the cup, in the blink of an eye;

Now the middle path(s):

c) if the p-stat is set to moderate (1.0 - 1.2 bar on the Lusso) and you have given the basket a moderate dose and have ground not too finely and have tamped not too heavily, then the degree of saturation of the coffee grounds during preinfusion is a function of those variables and is also time-dependent.

So there's no one right length of pre-infusion time, because it will vary according to the variables.

Regards
Timo

I should note that I have turned the pressurestat on the Microcasa down to 1 bar, when it arrived it was running at 1.3 bar

KarlSchneider wrote:Frege,

Your video is quite good. I still have a question. Why do you prefer the short pre-infusion? More precisely what do you taste in the short pre-infused shot that you prefer over the 10-sec pi shot? I am planning to try the short PI but would like to know what taste difference to expect.

Also in your video may I suggest that when you do another you include video of you in the actual pull moving of the lever. I suspect new users would like to see your actual movements. EG: how do you grasp the machine? In my pulls I have a two-fisted-love grasp of Tebaldi when we make an espresso. I hold the pf and the lever throughout the entire process.

KS

Thanks- my problem with longer pre-infusions was that I was experiencing inconsistency. Some great shots, visually as well as taste and texture-wise, but too often I'd pull two shots seriatim (one for me, one for partner) and despite pretty much the exact grinding-dosing-tamping pattern, one shot would be great but the next would be overextracted (I've never had a problem with underextraction with the Leva). I can't tell you how often I told my partner how lucky he was to get "the good shot" whereas mine would (sometimes, not always) be overextracted, almost crema-less and thin and burnt tasting. And whether the "good" shot was first or second would vary.

The nice thing about this technique is that I've been getting consistently beautiful shots whether they're first, second, or third shots (never pulled 4 so I can't comment on that). The only thing that really seems to vary is the hot-ness of later shots.

I normally pull down with one hand and don't usually hold the PF, but I do sometimes. When I make a "double" I undertake my second pull when the lever is about parallel to the ground.

frege wrote:... too often I'd pull two shots seriatim ...and ...one shot would be great but the next would be overextracted ...

This scenario typically indicates overheating of the group. Those domestic-duty machines whose groups draw heat not only from the water passing through them but from a single pressurized boiler to which they're bolted, have a narrow time-window for sweet extraction, if left to themselves. The barista can intervene with a cold damp rag placed on the group or by running the portafilter under cold water.

Regards
Timo

timo- very, very aware of that, thanks. Perhaps the shorter preinfusion helps delimit the group's overheating then.

Of course that doesn't explain the pure visual beauty of my shots these days (or does it?). I know that what I did for my vid was not really "leopard spotting" but man, what I pulled this morning was as pretty as anything I've got from LM or Synesso-equipped shops.

frege wrote:timo- very, very aware of that, thanks. Perhaps the shorter preinfusion helps delimit the group's overheating then.

Of course that doesn't explain the pure visual beauty of my shots these days (or does it?). I know that what I did for my vid was not really "leopard spotting" but man, what I pulled this morning was as pretty as anything I've got from LM or Synesso-equipped shops.

Sometimes the most beautiful crema accompanies a too-hot extraction. When cannonfodder was dialing-in the Achille for the review, some of his better lookers, he said, were sink-shots; and this morning, I had a shot whose crema looked like some rare amazonian burled hardwood, but its taste was bitter.

Regards
Timo

timo888 wrote:I had a shot whose crema looked like some rare amazonian burled hardwood, but its taste was bitter.

You cite a good reason not to obsess over crema appearance. As the old espresso adage goes (paraphrased): "Beauty is skin deep, but taste goes to the bone."

Next review:

Leverhead Pump Machine Smackdown

Right on Doug - I've been wondering myself just why this thread has been so slow to develop. I haven't done my homework, but I'll bet the Titan thread accumulated a lot more pages per day than this thread has.

Are you reviewers a little stumped?

PC

In fact, it took 26 days to go from top of page 1 to top of page 4.

The Titan thread took 12 days.

Can we conclude, therefore, that the typical HB'er is just over twice as interested in big. noisy electric machines than they are in small, quiet espresso makers?

PC