CoffeeOwl wrote:Karl,
could you please add some comparison of the taste of La Pavoni shots vs Elektra's and Cremina's?

And...

Dave, could you please keep your promise and write some more info on that topic? (that is the set-up itself and the temp profile/stability of your 'little man')
I will probably buy La Pavoni in near future and would be very happy and appreciating your elaborations.
Thanks!

Well, there is an inherent problem with a pressure driven lever. The water has to be hotter than brew temperature to create steam. That steam forces the water from the boiler to the group. It was quite a bit of work and if I had to do it again, I would not. I did a post about it three years ago, for more info... Digital temperature controller on a lever machine

Thank you both!

Pawel,

If you are concerned with micromanaging temperature, I'm not sure any of the lever machines commonly available will work. They all, as Dave notes, use pressure to push water to the group - and this water therefore is hot - ~230F (Pressure increases the boiling point). The very large piece of brass, known as the group on lever machines, draws away the extra heat, allowing proper brew temperature. This is why they tend to overheat during prolonged use. Eventually the group cannot absorb enough heat to cool the water sufficiently.

Managing these temperatures to +/- 1 degree, therefore will be very difficult. That said, there is a very long list of very satisfied, and some very discriminating, lever users. This is because lever espresso tastes great, and because using a lever espresso machine is a beautiful experience. Somehow each of these users has developed means to obtain the brew temperatures they like, and you will too.

Any of the commonly available lever machines (Pavoni, Elektra, Ponte Vecchio) will make a great espresso, and will be a joy to use. You'll need to decide between spring and manual levers, and plenty has been written about each.

Good luck,

PC

Peacecup,

honestly, we espresso drinkers cannot even be 100% sure that this brew temperature control is all that important to the excellence of taste in the cup ( -> Semiautomatica review).
Anyway, my line will be Pavoni - Elektra - Cremina... LOL, I guess I forgot I'm not yet a millionaire... so at least in tasting the espressi it will be, with Semiautomatica in there too. What will I buy in (hopefully) near future - La Pavoni Stradivari 16 cup in wood, just because I prefer a manual lever first.
And well, I pray to my Gods for this being really soon, for I want LMWDP number 198 and it looks like there's a lever crowd!

CoffeeOwl wrote:honestly, we espresso drinkers cannot even be 100% sure that this brew temperature control is all that important to the excellence of taste in the cup ( -> Semiautomatica review).

Follow-up comments split to article feedback for the Buyer's Guide to the Elektra Microcasa Semiautomatica...

CoffeeOwl wrote:Anyway, my line will be Pavoni - Elektra - Cremina... LOL, I guess I forgot I'm not yet a millionaire

Don't forget about the Ponte Vecchio lineup. Once warmed up the Lusso with its in-direct connected grouphead is relatively temp stable. I waste less water flushing the group with this machine than my retired Isomac Tea (E61/HX) used. Normal procedure is one pull on the lever (~30-60ml of water flushed), lock the portafilter, pull the shot.

Not very common, megabucks & 220volt/+18amp, but are not the Astoria Rapallo levers a HX design? If the groupheads are indirect connects like the Lusso should be minimal problems with overheating grouphead. Adjustments to the boiler pstat should allow you to have some control over brew water temp.

I quite enjoyed reading through this smackdown and was most interested in comparisons of the Mcal and the Europiccola especially since I have a Europiccola myself.

My biggest takeaway from all this is that each of the machines have their own characteristic - be it manual lever or spring assisted lever. However, are the differences between the Lusso and the Mcal minute enough that we can classify them as of the same character? For someone new to espresso is the difference actual so great that he/she can taste the difference between say the Mcal and the Lusso?

For me the difference between my europiccola and my NS Oscar is a 'softer' edge on the manual vs the Oscar HX semi-auto pump. I was convinced of getting a lever after trying some espresso at Lux coffeebar in Phoenix. They have a 3 group manual 'spring' lever machine there. As is often the case for me I always order an espresso prior to ordering a cappuccino to check basics. I found the commercial lever to have an even softer edge compare to my europiccola. I can probably drink a big gulp of espresso's from there. Of course this could relate to the person behind the lever.

It seems to me that most if not all commercial levers I see mentioned here in HB are of the spring lever type. Is this true?

Is the softer edge due to the pressure from a spring is lower - <9 bar? If commercial levers are mostly spring type, why then are semi-auto pumps recommended at 9 bar? I'm assuming this has been debated before, being a relative newbie I'd appreciate a link to such posts.

caeffe wrote:I quite enjoyed reading through this smackdown(...)

ME TOO!!!

caeffe wrote:For someone new to espresso is the difference actual so great that he/she can taste the difference between say the Mcal and the Lusso?

and MCal and Pavoni (the taste difference between Cremina and MCal was that widely discussed that I assume even a relative newbe would notice it).

caeffe wrote:(...)pressure from a spring is lower - <9 bar? If commercial levers are mostly spring type, why then are semi-auto pumps recommended at 9 bar? I'm assuming this has been debated before, being a relative newbie I'd appreciate a link to such posts.

CoffeeGeek wrote:The spring's force is the equivalent of 8BAR of pressure

That's what makes me wonder too...

I believe the end of shot pressure is more in line with 6 bar on the Microcasa Leva, not sure about the commercial machines.

I'm curious to know if the Lusso can be temperature surfed like one would a typical e61 machine? What I mean is, are differences in taste profiles obvious when the Lusso is flushed 1oz prior to brewing versus when it is flushed 3oz?

I have gone through this thread a fair amount, but missed whether Greg put a Scace on the Lusso after-all - did he come up with a guide of any kind that might indicate what temperatures could be expected from a Lusso with pstat set to X, and after flushing A, B, and C amounts?

Mark