timo888 wrote:PV advertise this machine as having an "average warm-up time" of only 10 minutes.

Most advertisements define warm-up time = boiler is up to operating temperature. Various "cheats" exist for speeding the rest of the espresso machine's group to readiness, e.g., Cheating Miss Silvia. For the purposes of reviews, warm-up time = espresso machine is temperature stable and ready to brew without any operator intervention.

I put a type K thermocouple on the on the group to see how fast it came to temperature. Nothing very scientific, I just put a rubber band around the group and a type K thermocouple under it. As I said earlier, my experience may have been a fluke since I have only power cycled the machine a few times. It did appear to heat faster this time. After a half hour the group was registering 146F and felt much warmer to the touch. After 15 minutes the group was registering 125ish.

To each his own, but I like a half hour warm up.

HB wrote:Most advertisements define warm-up time = boiler is up to operating temperature. Various "cheats" exist for speeding the rest of the espresso machine's group to readiness, e.g., Cheating Miss Silvia. For the purposes of reviews, warm-up time = espresso machine is temperature stable and ready to brew without any operator intervention.

Dan,
The definition "ready to brew without any operator intervention" is arbitrary, and frankly, bullsh*t. I suppose the E61, with cooling flush requirements, disqualifies that class of machine What do you call a cooling flush if not "operator intervention"? How does it squeak past your definition but a warming flush does not?

I used a Lusso for months. It is a convection-only heated group, and a relatively small group (compared to the much more massive E61) and it works with a much simpler thermal scenario compared to groups that have direct metal-to-metal contact with a boiler and get their heat from two sources, conduction and convection.

The Lusso heats up and is ready to go in ~12 minutes using the flush procedure that I described above, which is also recommended in the manual, quoted above. The Lusso was temperature stable afterwards.

Regards
Timo

timo888 wrote:The definition "ready to brew without any operator intervention" is arbitrary, and frankly, bullsh*t. I suppose the E61, with cooling flush requirements, disqualifies that class of machine?

It matters for those who turn on the machine and then take a shower, expecting to make their espresso immediately upon their return. For me, the more interesting question is why Ponte Vecchio installed a fancy water level cutoff and omitted a vacuum breaker.

timo888 wrote:If one does a warming flush at ~8 minutes but then gives the machine another 4 or 5 minutes for the thermosyphon to do its thing, any spike in heat from the warming flush will have had time to dissipate, and the group will reach temperature equilibrium.

timo888 wrote:The Lusso heats up and is ready to go in ~12 minutes using the flush procedure that I described above, which is also recommended in the manual, quoted above. The Lusso was temperature stable afterwards.

Specific timings aside, the Lusso requires extra attention that other Smackdown candidates do not. For example, the Microcasa is ready in 12 minutes without operator intervention.

Ponte Vecchio Lusso: The little machine that could.

I have only been using the single group Lusso for 3 days but have quickly come up to speed on the little box. I would normally work with a machine for a week before I do any writing about the system. However, I have had hands on tutorial of the machine along with the previous user's reviews. Armed with that knowledge, I brought the Lusso home and hooked it up on my espresso bar.

I broke out the owners manual, yes some of us still look before we work, and leafed through it. I was not expecting much, most espresso machines have rudimentary owner manuals and the Ponte Vecchio is no exception. The basics of the machine are covered, what is where, and basic operation but not much else.

I filled up the boiler and powered up the machine. As I stated earlier, the Lusso has no vacuum breaker so false pressure must be vented after the initial heat-up. The owners manual listed the heat up time as 10 minutes. I was skeptical. The Lusso single group has a 3 liter boiler and a 1200 watt heater. That is a lot of water, and steel/brass to heat in a very short time. The machine will complete its initial heat up in 10 minutes, false pressure still needs to be purged. Open up the steam wand and purge the boiler for 10 seconds then let the machine come to temperature again. That takes another 3 minutes.

Unlike the other machines of the lever machine Smackdown, the Lusso uses a thermosiphon similar to those used by E61 groups albeit on a smaller scale. While the boiler comes to temperature in under 15 minutes, I find that the group and rest of the machines steel body needs at least a half hour of heat up time. You can speed the process by purging some water out of the group but keep in mind you are depleting your brew water. Once empty, the machine will need time to cool down before you open the boiler to add more water. Then you have to go through the entire heating process again.

While I am on the subject of heat, let me mention the little machine's unique ability to not overheat. Because the grouphead is not attached to the boiler it does not overheat like the other Smackdown participants. You can even leave the machine on for extended periods. I ran the little box for two days without powering it down. I pulled shots until the boiler hit the low limit and never had any heat issues, other than it running cool unless I do a warming flush before the shot.

I loaded the Cimbali Max up with some La Bella Vita espresso blend from PT's Coffee, made a guess at my grind based on the Elektra Microcasa Leva and pulled my first shot. I was surprised; the extraction was on the money. The shot was all crema and flowed like honey. The resulting diminutive shot was brighter and more acidic than the shots from the Gaggia Factory with a little less body but not quite as bright as the Elektra. The big shocker was the diminutive amount of espresso a single lever pull produces. I gathered a scant half ounce or so of espresso. While tasty, it was hardly enough for the amount of coffee I used. But this was my first pull on this machine and there is much more testing ahead.

The Lusso uses a very small portafilter -- the smallest I have ever used. The baskets make up for their small diameter by being deep. I can fill the basket to a small mound and do a no pressure sweep to level off the basket. The resulting dose is in the 11.5 gram range, give or take a couple of tenths. I have been using 11 to 11.5 grams in my shots so far with good results. I will point out one annoying problem. The basket is so small in diameter that I end up with a teaspoon-ish worth of grounds in the drop tray. The basket is so narrow that some of the grinds will miss while thwacking the doser handle. I may start dosing into a ramekin and then transferring it to the basket but it is really more work than I want to go through.

The basket is not the only small part on the Lusso. The piston is equally small. The piston stroke appears to very close to that of the Elektra Microcasa Leva. The reduced diameter of the piston means it pushes less water with each stroke. Pulling a single stroke shot with the Lusso using a double basket produces a shot that would barely overflow a thimble. A multi-pull is required to get more than a sip. If you use the single basket, a single pull would be more acceptable due to the reduced dose.

The single pull, multi pull discussion is described in detail in the Lever multiple pull techniques thread. I will not be debating the pros or cons of this technique but I will elaborate on how I pull a shot on the Lusso.

I start by pulling an ounce of water through the group and portafilter into my demitasse cup to both preheat the group and the cup. Then I grind my fresh beans and dose the double basket to just below the top rim of the basket for an 11 gram dose. I give that a quick leveling sweep with the back of my little finger followed by three thumps on my tamping stand to further level and settle the coffee bead.


Then a nice light tamp to settle the puck.



I then empty the water out of my cup, lower the lever until a little water flows then back off until it just stops. At that point the lever is around half cocked. Then I lock in my portafilter, lower the lever to the bottom of the stroke and hold. I keep the lever depressed for 7 seconds. While the lever is depressed I place my cup under the spouts. Once I release the lever I allow it to travel until the first few drops fall into my cup. I then re-cock the lever, hold it for another 3 seconds and release. I allow the lever to travel through a full stroke to complete the shot. That dispenses just over one ounce of espresso.

Just for clarification, the Lusso has a double spouted portafilter, espresso was just flowing from one spout when I snapped the photos, hence the appearance of a single stream.

So far, this is working well for me but as I mentioned earlier, my time with the Lusso has been short so my opinion/technique may change over time.

I am finding the shots on the Lusso to be quite good. The shots are brighter than the LaPavoni with more clarity in flavor but with less body yet slightly less brightness than the Elektra Microcasa Leva but with a touch more body. The little Ponte Vecchio Lusso appears to fill a niche between the two cup styles of my other machines. I still reserve the right to change my opinion as my time with "the little machine that could" progresses.

HB wrote:Specific timings aside, the Lusso requires extra attention that the other Smackdown candidates do not. For example, the Microcasa is ready in 12 minutes without the need to relieve false pressure or help "the thermosyphon to do its thing."

Different machines have different basic designs, and different approaches to temperature management. The Lusso from the factory cannot be put on a timer, and those who like to wake up to find their machine ready to pull an espresso may not want a Lusso. [They would have to wait a long, caffeine-deprived 4 minutes for the machine to come to temp after bleeding the false pressure and doing a flush or two, as the factory manual recommends.] But it is misleading to say that the Lusso has "a long heat-up time." It does not. The Lusso's convection-heated group simply requires a warming flush, just as other designs, whose issue is that they run hot, will require a cooling flush.

There is a beneficial upside to the heat-up cycle warming flush requirement: the Elektra, Cremina, Pavoni, and Ponte Vecchio Export levers all eventually overheat from conduction (requiring operator intervention to cool them down) whereas the Lusso's group is not heated by conduction and so can pull more shots than those "personal class" machines can. The Lusso is in the "club" (i.e. "small communities") class, and can be used for light entertaining.

When Olympia added a vacuum breaker to their design, to eliminate the need to release false pressure, it turned out that scale deposits could cause the vacuum breaker to stick, allowing the boiler to run dry. Olympia subsequently removed the vacuum breaker, reverting to the older, simpler design that requires "operator intervention" before it is ready to brew.

Perhaps Ponte Vecchio decided that bleeding the false pressure and a simple warming flush were to be preferred over that scenario?

Regards
Timo

cannonfodder wrote:Once empty, the machine will need time to cool down before you open the boiler to add more water.

This is not literally true. One need only bleed off all pressure before opening the boiler cap. The massive brass boiler and group will remain hot, decreasing the heat-up time for the second filling.

PC

You are correct, when I say cool down, I do not necessarily mean cool to the touch but void of any boiler pressure. You can open the steam wand to vent pressure and try to cool the remaining water faster but it still takes time to cool to zero pressure.

Whatever you do, never open the boiler cap when there is pressure in the boiler. Something the manual also points out. Doing so can cause severe injury. There is a small hole in the boiler cap threads about half way down. That hole is present on all of my lever machines. It is a pressure release vent just in case you do unscrew the boiler cap while pressurized. Once that hole rises above the boiler fitting threads high pressure steam will vent. That is your last and only warning before the boiler cap blows off and steam and super heated water blast you in the face/hand/assorted body parts. Needless to say, 245 degree water in the face, or anywhere else would be very bad.

narc wrote:I powered up the Ponte Vecchio Lusso (PVL) 2 group as normal but did not flush the left grouphead. "Normal" is after reaching the max of 1.05bars, open steam valve to release any false pressure, let boiler reach max again, flush grouphead for couple seconds. After letting the machine sit for ~1 hour both groups felt the same to the touch.

I don't believe we have any under-the-hood pictures of the 2-group Lusso. Or do we? If you feel so inclined, I am sure they would be much appreciated. Does each group have its own 'dedicated' thermosyphon? Any possibility that flushing one group might clear the (putative) vapor lock for both?

Regards
Timo

Timo, I think you are correct.
Some photos under posting "First initial impressions..." somewhere in the Lever section.
There looks to be only one line from the boiler that must split somewhere inside the plate that you see on the outside of the front panel.
Now I feel like a real dolt. This AM observations are probably explained due to the single thermosyphon line spliting into two.
The Observations: ~9:30 minutes to reach 1.05Bars, released any false pressure and flushed right grouphead
@20 min. from power up both groups felt the same, warm but not hot to the touch
@30 min. from power up same as above, just warmer but not so hot you could not touch for a
second or two
Flushed right group, loaded & pulled a shot. After pulling the shot the grouphead was significantly hotter than the left group. Pulled a shot on the left group. Both groups now hot enough allowing only light quick touch.