HB wrote:If you have specific suggestions on how we can do a better job, or wish to offer your own findings, please do so.

I do.

gscace wrote: I think coffee and water are dead, and they don't give a ratsass what device shoves the dead water through the dead coffee - lever, pump, or banjo.

This statement leaves no room for the possibility, that the ability to manually control and the ability to vary that control, could somehow improve the shot. This is reminiscent of the rigid stance taken by the flat line temperature advocates prior to another_jim's revelation, in his Semiautomatica review, that a range of temperatures may actually improve shot quality.

It doesn't take into account the talents of lever users, who for years, have continually improved their skills with lever machines

Kaffee Bitte wrote:

You should grind about 12grams of coffee for the double basket.

I've actually found that a small amount of overdosing helps a lot...

It's a real stretch to call 12g overdosing (or even updosing).

This Pavoni must be a pre millenium model. On my millenium it is no problem to get around 15-16g in the double basket. Mind you this is with a larger 51mm group and deeper basket by far.

Something that might be a good idea for the reviewers using this older model is to get an Elektra Microcasa a Leva double basket to use with the pavoni. It allows more coffee to be used, possibly bringing the ability to make true doubles. Something to think about.

The La Pavoni (Gaggia Factory) I have is the millennium grouped machine. The stock double basket will take 13 grams of coffee using the ubiquitous over fill and level off the top method, more if you give it a little tap to settle the grounds. I do not normally put that much coffee in the basket. I have to weigh the basket (I dose by sight) to see what I am dosing but I would guess it is around 11-12 grams in the 51mm basket.

In a previous post I measured both the Elektra and Pavoni double baskets and was surprised to find that both hold relatively close amounts of coffee. While the Elektra uses a small group the basket is deeper, the 51mm LaPav basket is larger in diameter but shallower.

I think I get a better cup from the Factory when doing multiple pulls, or partial pulls in my case vs the Elektra. When doing a multi pump pull I will allow the puck to preinfuse under boiler pressure for 5-6 seconds, pull a half stroke, then gently raise the lever and hold it for another 2-3 seconds before pulling the full shot. That allows the piston chamber to refill with water and I get one and a half ounce (give or take a little) shot. I think I still get a better shot with a single uninterrupted pull but that puts the shot in the ristretto range.

Let the caffeine flow

If one's daily squeeze, for years, has been a modern pump machine, then one has learned by heart many barista techniques optimized for that modern platform which won't transfer well to a vintage (or vintage-design) domestic spring lever (VDSL). The VDSL has a smaller water draw, a basket with different geometry, a lower brew pressure that tapers off, and does not go about preinfusion the way a modern pump machine does.

This is not to cast aspersions on users of modern pump machines, but the LMWDP handbook requires me to remind you, "with glare in eye and out-thrust chin" that if you think you can transfer pump-oriented barista techniques, unmodified, to a VDSL, you are headed for disappointment. While it's certainly fair to compare the espresso made on the VDSL with the espresso produced by a modern machine, fairness also requires adaptation of technique. The barista techniques themselves are not writ in stone; the machines are not built around them. It's the other way around.

Regards
Timo

Fullsack wrote:This statement leaves no room for the possibility, that the ability to manually control and the ability to vary that control, could somehow improve the shot. This is reminiscent of the rigid stance taken by the flat line temperature advocates prior to another_jim's revelation, in his Semiautomatica review, that a range of temperatures may actually improve shot quality.

It doesn't take into account the talents of lever users, who for years, have continually improved their skills with lever machines

Coffee and water don't care if pressure is varied over time or volume by pump, person, banjo, as long as the feedback loop is properly closed, and as long as the right parameters are being used to control the feedback loop. You can make arguments about whether or not the right parameters are being judged. I think that one of the potential advantages of manual extraction is that the barista can quickly shift between parameters being judged.

Fullsack wrote:It doesn't take into account the talents of lever users, who for years, have continually improved their skills with lever machines

That's all well and good, but practical matters require that I focus on what a typical home barista can reproduce in their own home without years and years of experience. This approach to reviews works out well for me because I consider myself an "average" home barista who only happens to have more espresso equipment in his house than average, plus the site can publish a few reviews a year instead of one every three to four years.

timo888 wrote:...if you think you can transfer pump-oriented barista techniques, unmodified, to a VDSL, you are headed for disappointment. While it's certainly fair to compare the espresso made on the VDSL with the espresso produced by a modern machine, fairness also requires adaptation of technique. The barista techniques themselves are not writ in stone; the machines are not built around them. It's the other way around.

I learned long ago that barista techniques have to be adapted to the equipment before you-- that's one of the primary values of the Buyer's Guide --but thanks for the reminder.

HB wrote:That's all well and good, but practical matters require that I focus on what a typical home barista can reproduce in their own home without years and years of experience. This approach to reviews works out well for me because I consider myself an "average" home barista who only happens to have more espresso equipment in his house than average, plus the site can publish a few reviews a year instead of one every three to four years.

No argument there, but a disconnect occurs when a seasoned pump machine user with limited lever machine skills, compares his pump machine to a lever machine.

Fullsack wrote:No argument there, but a disconnect occurs when a seasoned pump machine user with limited lever machine skills, compares his pump machine to a lever machine.

Thanks for clarifying, I think we'll be able to handle it.

Just finished reading the last 3 pages on this thread.

This just my personal view coming from someone with 25 years of using a pump machine if you include the "Dark Ages" with the Gaggia Coffee. The last ~6 years with a more contemporary E61/HX machine (isomac tea) , ~5 years with a MicroCasa a Leva (MCaL) and <1 month with a Ponte Vecchio Lusso 2(PVL).

The comparisons between pump & lever are important to people who are thinking about acquiring a lever machine. I found gscace's evaluation of the PVL, including his investigation into what may be the reasons why PVL pulls the shots it does helpful & interesting. Happy someone is really into tweaking gear to nth degree.

To state the obvious, there are just many more variables to control in a lever machine. Between the two lever machines I own it seems like to pull the optimal espresso specific to the particular machine requires different "technique". By technique I'm including the total process from grind to extraction. I have my strong doubts that you will be able to duplicate the cup pulled from a MCal by the PVL. Or the reverse. Relatively unique characteristics in the espresso pulled from these different machines IMO is a good thing. The world of espresso would be boring if all machines duplicated each others shots.

I've decided that using lever machines means you are always in the process of learning and relearning. For some reason I feel more satisfied when the exceptional shot is pulled relative to hitting the button on the pump machine. Have I become a lever snob/geek/dweeb?

Looking forward to future discussion, evaluations of this group of lever machines.

I have not read the past two pages yet, but I'm glad the material is coming so fast. I will do so, but at the risk of repeating, here are some thoughts I had this AM:

Consider that the potential buyer is thinking about spending $500-1000 on a machine, probably at least his/her second machine. When I was about to buy my lever machine I was comparing to something like a Silvia, but the more expensive levers might compare to others. I realize some of this has already been covered, but how does the lever compare to a pump machine in this price range, in terms of:

1. Reliability - anything gone wrong yet? How is it built - is it worth my hard-earned cash. How often will I need to ship it back to 1-rst Line for repair? How much are parts? Can I do it myself? I have pulled 3-4 shots per day on my Export for two years, and have done nothing but put a drop of olive oil on top the piston, on the brew group gasket, and in the rubber feet.
2. Repeatability - I, for one, have found it very easy to dial in my Ponte Vecchio - if I follow the same procedure each time I can expect very consistent results.
3. Usability out of the box - are there a lot of minor things that need to be tweaked?
4. Support - online or phone resources for problems, brewing advice
5. Quality, quantity, taste of espresso (obviously subjective, and has been well-discussed already)
6. User experience - how do you like the hands-on approach? The quiet, mess, etc. I personally cringe every time a hear a pump machine now (or an electric grinder), but of course this is a personal preference.

Thanks,

PC

Kaffee Bitte wrote:This Pavoni must be a pre millenium model. On my millenium it is no problem to get around 15-16g in the double basket. Mind you this is with a larger 51mm group and deeper basket by far.

Something that might be a good idea for the reviewers using this older model is to get an Elektra Microcasa a Leva double basket to use with the pavoni. It allows more coffee to be used, possibly bringing the ability to make true doubles. Something to think about.

Not true. This is the newer model La Pavoni with the 51mm basket. My comments clearly state that 12g is not overdosing. I can also pack 16g into the double basket.