"Experiment soothes the mind" -- Francis Bacon

Yes, it does! Jim, this was a wonderful experiment. Congratulations.

We used four coffees, the Sidamo Bonko SO at 14.5 grams on the Elektras and 14.8 grams on the DC at normale pours. Intelligentsia's Black Cat at 15.1 for the Elektra's and 15.5 for the DC at ristretto pours, Metropolis's Redline at 14 .7 for the Elektra and 15 for the DC, and a Guatemal Oriente DP at 15.6 for the Elektras and 16 for the DC

If nothing else, your experiment showed that one can save ~2.5% on coffee costs by using the Elektra over the DC.

We talk a lot about how different machines are. But those of us who have done blind taste testing know that once the machines and coffees are good quality, this is about very small differences indeed. The formal Titan grinder tests were very close to a wash. The informal "beat the Robur" tests were statistically insignificant and relatively minuscule except for a few ill favored grinders. And that was just about the clearest of the taste tests. Most of the other stuff has been even closer to no difference.

The simple act of setting up a test like this forces one to squeeze consistent performance out of each tested item before the testing starts. That usually eliminates almost all the things that were contributing to the initial ideas about dramatic differences.

It's been said many times, but past a certain level, it seems like the better machines don't necessarily produce better espresso, but they sure make it easier. IIRC, in the Beat the Robur testing the samples were vigorously WDT'd. That was the equalizer. Without WDT, I imagine the Robur would have been a clear winner. Or do I remember wrong?

This test was done with the OPV defeated (turned all the way in to max pressure). I'm fairly sure my OPV was hinky, but given the huge improvement in shot quality I got when doing this, I doubt the 9.5 bar setting the machine is delivered at in the US is even remotely close to right.

I don't know what "hinky" means, and I don't understand this paragraph. Could you please explain?

The final conclusion goes to Ken Fox

As always, Dr Fox rules.

AndyS wrote:I don't know what "hinky" means, and I don't understand this paragraph (edit insert: about the Mini DC's OPV.) Could you please explain?

The DC Mini has a Fluid-O-Tech vibe pump/OPV combo set up similar to a rotary pump, with the OPV feeding the overpressure spillage back to the pump intake.
-- Greg thinks the spring on this OPV is too soft, so that if set to X bar against a blind filter, it can run as low as X-3 bar at espresso flow volumes.
-- I got lever texture shots when I first used the machines. I didn't have a pressure meter, so I tried adjusting by sound and spillage, even an eighth turn produced large differences and unpredictable performance.
- I ended up turning the valve all the way in, so there is no spillage under any pressure. The Fluid-O-Tech pump curve maxes at around 12.5 bar, so this is hardly a tragedy. It just means singles and double ristrettos still work at around 11 bar, but that single ristrettos can turn into 12 bar two alarmers.

I'm going to recommend they return to the Ulka/OPV combo they had at the beginning; it's quieter and less bitchy. Apparently that wasn't "commercial" enough for some of the Kaffeenetz early adopters, so they changed it.

For three thousand bucks, they might even find their way to adding a pump pressure gauge .

another_jim wrote:I'm going to recommend they return to the Ulka/OPV combo they had at the beginning; it's quieter and less bitchy. Apparently that wasn't "commercial" enough for some of the Kaffeenetz early adopters, so they changed it.

For three thousand bucks, they might even find their way to adding a pump pressure gauge .

From what you said, they should keep the FOT pump and just source a better OPV. Better yet, for three thousand bucks, a FOT ROTARY.

I would like to thank Sherman and Brandon for participating in this test. Having them over made this potential chore a joy.

Taking sips from three nigh identical shots roughly 10 times in a row can be a huge pain. If we had done the test rigorously, separate tasting, no communication, no feedback, etc etc, it would have been awful. But we did it more like party science, tasting together, then uncovering the cups, and talking about the results after each round. If it had turned out that we were picking one machine consistently, the round by round discussion would have made the result suspicious. But since we found no difference, the loose, sociable format doesn't invalidate the result (i.e. how could the result have been less random if the test had been more blind?)

In any case, it's Maxwell and Folgers that do rigorous testing. At our roasters, people sit down and cup together, still blind of course, but talk about the result, and achieve consensus. Whose coffee would you like to drink? Pragmatism should trump the science ritualism of physics flunkouts.

And Sherman, thanks on the scallop cooking and real fowl market tips.

So Ken got his GS3 recently, but what about the "Final Word." Is this thread dead?

Darin

We are not reviewing the DC Mini. Enough said

hperry wrote:I'm sorry this is true. Seems like it is just as important to know why something doesn't perform the way that it should as it is to know the "good stuff" about machines. The sudden disappearance of this thread was disappointing to me. While I have a Dalla Corte super-mini I feel the information would be useful, even if negative. If nothing else it would allow me to test my own perceptions of the mini and the super mini, both of which I have used.

The realities of running a website such as this make the pursuit of "absolute truth" (if there is such a thing) impossible to accomplish. Equipment is provided by sellers (and in some cases the manufacturers) in the hope that a positive review will spur sales. If, for whatever reason, a piece of equipment (or a coffee blend) fails to please, a negative review would have quite the opposite effect for the vendor. These vendors are major financial supporters of this website, and without them we'd all be back on alt.coffee (slugging it out with Harmon and Dave B.; a fate worse than death ) This is one price we pay for getting suppliers to pay for our pleasure on this website. It's a pretty small price, I think.

ken

hperry wrote:The sudden disappearance of this thread was disappointing to me.

Huh? Three reviewers (Ian, Jim, me), a group test, and +160 posts isn't bad for a "Second Look."

Ken Fox wrote:Equipment is provided by sellers (and in some cases the manufacturers) in the hope that a positive review will spur sales.

This may be best discussed in a new thread, but before starting a public review of any sort, the equipment goes through a vetting phase typically lasting 2-3 weeks. If it doesn't cut it, we politely decline the opportunity.

This is an enthusiast site, and in the case of the Dalla Corte Mini, the reviewers were not paid for their time. Just like all enthusiasts, we enjoy getting the newest equipment and don't want to piss off vendors and manufacturers. But unlike many enthusiasts, we've all owned or tried dozens of machines and don't impress easily. That's why people are interested in our reviews. But it also means that a lot of the machines we are sent to review end up gathering dust in a dark corner instead, because we never warm up to them. Under such circumstances, the review remains unfinished.

Our decision to review or not doesn't have much to do with flaws. I reviewed the Elektra Semi, which has no pressure control at all, and whose temperature stability is "mostly between 90C and 95C, with chances of rain" because I found it a very enjoyable and tasty machine.

We always find flaws. And when we finish a review, it's not for the lack of flaws, but for the presence of strengths. Moreover, we will report any flaws we find, even the ones many or even most potential buyers would consider fatal. When we don't finish a review, it's not because the machine had worse flaws than the ones we did review, but because nobody in the review group was very interested in spending several months of their coffee life with that piece of gear.

If you want something less emotional, I suggest Consumer Reports.

I stopped reading this thread long ago, as it seemed to cover just about every topic except the Dalla Corte Mini! For the sake of future interested parties who might be researching this machine, I want to post a few thoughts and observations as an owner.

I've had a great experience with my DC Mini, which I've been using daily for about a year. It's been extremely reliable and a pleasure to use (as a former h/x user, the simplicity of temp management has allowed me to grab a second morning espresso when, previously, i might have been too pressed for time). A point I think is often overlooked as its greatest attribute is its size. I have very limited space, and my wife doesn't drink coffee, so a compact machine is a priority -- nothing can touch it in terms of small size. I had a Rancilio Silvia, then Pasquini Livia, and there was no machine that would be a step up that could fit on my counter until the DC Mini arrived. The size, when paired with the features, was enough for me to justify the high price. And it is definitely overpriced at $3K; it should be $2k. Or, if it's going to be $3K, it should have a digital temp control and steam boiler switch.

Once set, I've found the temp to be very consistent. For me, the variety of baskets and dispersion discs have allowed me to experiment with dose as much as I like (I was concerned leaving the 58mm standard, but it hasn't been an issue). The machine heats up very quickly, and it's been a much better steamer than my Livia.

I would buy it again, despite the price, and have no desire for a new machine. While it's tough to recommend over the competition at its current price point, the machine itself has been wonderful and the size has been a true godsend.

I got a chance to pick a mini up at a discount. Size would be a great asset to me since my current set up takes up way too much space. My question is, how can you tell the actual temp? Is it possible to put a TC in it or is it overkill? Do you guys who have one just dial in the shots by taste on each batch?

My overall impression of the Mini is that it is better than its naysayers believe and not as good as my initial impressions.

Pluses:

- Brilliant brewhead design. Heats water and portafilter quickly.
- Very well built with great quality control. Apart from the original line filter problem, I have had zero problems in over a year, which is nearly unheard of for a new machine design. The interior still looks like new, including all the tubes, connectors and other plastic parts that had turned yellow and brittle after a year in my Isomac.
- No plumb-in or special wiring required. Fits under normal cabinets.
- Shots very predictable and of good quality.
- Steam is dry and powerful.

Negatives:

- Muddy shots. They are very much the same from one blend to another, and it is very difficult to experience distinctive flavors. This may be an issue with the narrow, deep basket or the pressure control. I'm only guessing. It's the main reason I've decided to buy a GS/3 Paddle.
- Overpressure valve placement. It renders the volumetric dosing useless, as it measures the water flow before it reaches the OPV and gets diverted. It may also not be as effective as some other valves.
- Preinfusion. Essentially useless without line pressure. DC may have a preinfusion mod in the works.

Other issues:

I've been told that some feel the temperature control may have an undesirably wide deadband that requires Silvia-like temperature surfing. As I say, my shots are stupefyingly predictable, so, if this is true for all units, it hasn't bothered me, and I don't have a 54mm Scace to do my own tests.

CGP4 wrote: so a compact machine is a priority -.

I pretty much agree with most of CGPR's impressions. My almost 1-year old DC Mini has gone through 3 apartment moves with one more to go (I must have seen 20 NYC kitchens with six-burner Wolf ranges paired to pathetic recirculating exhaust vents. Practical test is whether you can open the oven and not bump you butt against the subzero. 2 sq ft of counter space. Explanation? "New Yorkers like appliances; they just don't cook much." But that's another story . )

Before the DC Mini I had a LaSpaziale Viv II. Quite a large piece of plumbed-in equipment. There are advantages to each in taste, consistency, and overall user satisfaction. Neither is a clear winner/loser, though I'd favor the plumbed-in rotary combo.

My philosophy is "love the one you're with." If you had the counter real estate and wanted a new DB machine, I'd advise the VII. If I were in the same spot I was a year ago, I'd buy the DC Mini and not regret the extra $1k.

BTW, in my own little experiment I carefully noted the delivered position of the OPV, turned it up--down--east and west. Nothing seemed to make a difference. I think the technical term is "hinky."

Thanks Marshall,

See if you can get a discount on multiple purchases.

Andy Newbom, the owner of Barefoot Coffee in Santa Clara, used the Mini at their 6th Anniversary celebration this week. I asked him how well it worked. He answered:

The Dalle Corte mini rocks. We have used it for a few events where we pulled 50-150 shots in a few hours and it performed flawlessly. Our unit is not plumbed so you have to fill the water at times but it is an awesome machine. It is a commercial machine in a home size and 110V power.

http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/worldregional/uswest/444008#444008

Hi! I'm extremely new to this site.

I found it today whilst looking for another owner of a Dalla Corte Mini and i guess i found more than i bargained for.

Whilst extremely informative it was also very confusing.
I have no idea what my brew temp is or my brew pressure for that matter and untill reading all the posts regarding this on the DC i had never thought about it, instead relying on my experience as a barista to change dose and grind according to taste in the cup but i must say that im very impressed with the resulting shots but i cant really say why?
It FAR better than any other machine i have owned and lot better than some commercial machines i have worked on in my time.
I found the dosing and grind settings a little bit difficult to deal with out of the box considering all my experiences had been with the obligitory 58mm groups and a Nouva Simonelli MDXA commercial(read HEAVY) grinder. Most of this contributed to the fact i upgraded to a Ditting Vario digital grind on demand at the same time as the DC hence the introduction of the difficulty.

Without scales i dont know what my doses are but thank the the timing system of the Vario grinder i can at least be assured they are consistent. After around a month i purchased a 21g basket to add to my (now) naked portafilter and set about pulling some nice tripples but unless they were to be ristretto's there was no hope in replicating the smoothness of the single or the body of the double instead getting more like ash and dark sugarless chocolate?

For me im still not sure if i went too far with the purchase but it has been a HUGE step up from a HX machine and far less stuffing around with cooling flushes and burns from an E61 group.

My complaints with the DC seems to be much the same as you guys...
*Steam arm is not as flexable as im used to but still very easy to use.
*The depth of the group seal inside the head makes an easy wipe of the seal not so easy.
*The size of the opening means pulling the water container out is a must for refilling.
*Lack of digital readout for the temp nob is a bit disappointing.

Does any of this affect the overall performance of the machine?... NO!
Does it look a bit funny?...YES!
Does it make great coffee?...YES!
Is it easy to use?... EXTREMELY!

Out of the 5 or more kg's of coffee i have been through to date i can say the only shots that were under extracted were the first 2 whilst dialing in my new grinder at the same time and when i was given some extremely fresh Ethiopian Yirga but that was only because i had to make the grind courser after not being able to get the handle on the machine after dosing.
I have never over extracted any shots but i have been close a few time... from memory i have consumed ALL shots with the exception of the first 2 i poured.

1 thing i can be very sure of is that owner of the Vivaldi hate us and look at us like we think were better than them... i think what can be said of this is that were just silly idiots that had the extra $1000 to spend on the day OR we just like to be different. I'm going with the later

OZ Barista wrote:1 thing i can be very sure of is that owner of the Vivaldi hate us and look at us like we think were better than them... i think what can be said of this is that were just silly idiots that had the extra $1000 to spend on the day OR we just like to be different. I'm going with the later

I doubt any Vivaldi owner hates you, I think it was/is a case of wondering "what the hell were they thinking". Even if the price dropped $1000 the DC Mini still wouldn't be competitive against the other DBs in that price range without some upgrades.