Endo wrote:The Mini-Vivaldi and Dalla Corte Mini are both dual boiler, vibe pump, pour-over machines that do not use the traditional E-61 head. Can you name any two other machines that are better suited for comparison?

You say you have brew temperature comparisons of both machines? I'd like to see the graphs overlaid. I'm curious to see what an extra $1000 buys in terms of temperature stability.

"Love me; love my machine."

Endo wrote:Can you name any two other machines that are better suited for comparison?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Greg disagreed with your claim that they are similar in design (implementation).

I agree it makes sense to compare the Dalla Corte Mini with any espresso machine in its class and especially other double-boiler espresso machines. However, at this stage of the review, I think such comparisons are premature unless the commentator has considerable experience with the models being compared. Owners chiming in to compare specifications and brew temperature profiles may be interesting for engineering types, but too often they don't translate to in-cup results.

Marshall wrote:"Love me; love my machine."

Thanks for helping keep us on track, Marshall.

Endo wrote:You say you have brew temperature comparisons of both machines? I'd like to see the graphs overlaid. I'm curious to see what an extra $1000 buys in terms of temperature stability.

Given Greg's track record with this type of evaluation, I'd be inclined to accept his statement at face value.

I think that comparisons between them are reasonable, but to say that they are similar is not. It's true that they may be similar in that they have a water reservoir, and a vibe pump, but I think those facts are rather irrelevant for the purposes of comparing the quality of the cup that they produce.

I own a Vivaldi 1. I have Scace data for it that's kicking around somewhere, although it's not any different in profile to the stuff already on the web. It's pretty well documented that the Vivaldi has a bit of a cold nose, but it's not hard to deal with. I also have Scace measurements for the DC machines, but the data belong to Dalla Corte and I can't publish them without their permission. I can make relative comparisons to machines that I own, and qualitatively I can tell you that the DC is more reproducible, and closer to my ideal of espresso machines being totally transparent. By this I mean that you just walk up to the machine and use it without needing to know anything about cold noses, flushes, snake-handling, chicken-choking, whatever.

-Greg

hperry wrote:Given Greg's track record with this type of evaluation, I'd be inclined to accept his statement at face value.

I used the wisdom from Greg's writings when choosing my grinder. Only a few weeks before the Titan project got started I had a (used) Robur in my kitchen

- Thanks Greg

I read through the whole review and the only advantage this machine seems to have over the cheaper Mini-Vivaldi are the claims of slightly better temperature stability (which has an unclear affect on taste).

But it does seem to have many weaknesses like; cheaper OPV, pressure stat, analog knobs, restricted steam arm movement, no hot water dispenser, lack of brew pressure gauge, poor gravity fed pre-infusion, ugly styling.

I guess this explains why a lot more people are buying the less expensive Vivaldis. Seems I made the right choice.

Endo wrote:I guess this explains why a lot more people are buying the less expensive Vivaldis. Seems I made the right choice.

Q.E.D.

Since nobody else is talking about the DC; I thought I'd join in. So today, instead of the DC review, there's a quiz on basket geometry, dose, grind and temperature. I'm sure the sponsors will be delighted.

We found out yesterday that the DC makes very tasty, albeit delicate singles, from DP Sidamos and Yrgs, roasted light to medium when the basket is dosed for 7 grams, the temperature is set at 90, and we pull a 1/3 ounce liquid, 1/3 ounce crema in around 30 seconds. Today's mission is to make shots with the double and triple basket that taste as similar as possible to the single basket.

The single basket is a truncated cone at the bottom and cylindrical at the top. The 7 gram dose fills the truncated area, leaving the cylinder area as headspace. The double and triple baskets are cylinders with roughly twice the hole area as the single. The double and triple have roughly the same hole area. A 12 gram dose leaves roughly the same head space in the double as the 7 gram dose on the single; an 18 gram dose does the same for the triple.

Here's the quiz:

1. Is it possible to get the same shot taste from the a) double, b) triple as from the single.

2. If it is, what dose should one use for the a) double, b) triple

3. If it is, what grind should one use for the a) double, b) triple. Coarser or finer than the single?

4. If it is, what temperature should one use for the a) double, b) triple. Hotter or colder?

Extra credit for those who give reasons. Answers and more DC review tomorrow.

And yes, this is the DC Mini review, so answers will be counted as correct if they work on it regardless of what happens on other machines.

another_jim wrote:And yes, this is the DC Mini review, so answers will be counted as correct if they work on it regardless of what happens on other machines.

I'll write quickly, before the Vivaldi Vandals spray any more graffiti on your wall.

DC doubles tend toward a very pleasant, sweet and malty base with all the 6 or 7 blends I usually brew, with a variety of citrus or spice flavors that are very muted. I take this to be the opposite of "clarity." They are also very full-bodied. Since I returned from S.F. last month I have been tinkering with pressure and volume and have nothing definitive to report on achieving doubles clarity.

I'm just starting to get my head around singles, so I'm a rank amateur on that side. Based on what I've tried in the last 24 hours (Black Cat), I need about 9g. to get a non-spraying, even extraction. The same blend improved at about a 2C temperature reduction from the double. The body is lighter than the doubles, and the malty flavor is largely gone, with more distinctive flavors poking through. I get about 1/3 of an ounce at this point, in about 25-30 seconds, with the flow paling out after that.

I'll be moving on to two Supreme Bean blends (Bella Luna and Ring of Fire) tomorrow. I'll report more when (and if) I have something worthwhile to contribute.

Jim, I finished my last semester of school 36 years ago. 15 years later, I finally stopped having sweaty nightmares about arriving in class unprepared for a final exam.

Now your quiz is going to bring back those nightmares!

Arrgggg!

And how come dozens of other people aren't rushing in to take this quiz? One never wants to be the first to put down answers that will look really dumb in retrospect. ;-(

1. Is it possible to get the same shot taste from the a) double, b) triple as from the single.

Maybe for you with the double, but not the triple. Probably very unlikely for me with either!

2. If it is, what dose should one use for the a) double, b) triple

Twice the hole area, twice the dose: 14 gram double

3. If it is, what grind should one use for the a) double, b) triple. Coarser or finer than the single?

Maybe about the same for the double, hopefully the basket was designed that way. The triple would be coarser "of course," but it won't taste the same.

4. If it is, what temperature should one use for the a) double, b) triple. Hotter or colder?

According to the theory that I published on this forum, hotter, but you tell me!

Extra credit for those who give reasons.

Ummm, do the reasons have to be correct?