V vs S begins (Vesuvius vs Slayer)

Need help with equipment usage or want to share your latest discovery?
User avatar
Compass Coffee
Posts: 2844
Joined: 19 years ago

#1: Post by Compass Coffee »

I posted the crated arrival in the back of my Jeep in the ubber long Slayer thread, figure time to start another and here they are again from when he (yes he's a he not a she) Wednesday.



Finally got him out late this morning. First unveiling top of the driveway just outside garage.


Slayer on the counter, unwrapped, drain and water connected ready for initial power up.


Back side. Flojet BW4000 feeding 3.2 gallon accumulator pressurized 20psi currently not using regulator. Will see whether I need a different stronger pump and regulator or whether this type of setup will work. It is of course feeding the Slayer less than the spec'd 3-5 bar line pressure. (I've run 3 groups off smaller accumulators with standard Flojet and no regulator but they weren't Slayers)


After adjusting pump pressure % to 10 bar with blank and pre-brew flow rate ~40g/30sec turned on the heaters. After close to an hour decided time for the first shot. First pulled a shot on V, then S. Used same Synesso basket I've been using for both shots, 20g beans, V shot 36.1g yield S shot 37g. V shot started 2bar until first couple drips @ 25sec then to 9 bar until ~50sec then to 6 bar 5 sec then 4 bar 5 sec ~60sec total shot time for the 36.1g yield. Dumped and rinsed basket and moved it to Slayer PF and ground. (Oh grinding single dosing using Macap M7D.) Whoa Slayer first drip ~45sec then moved to full pump for around 25-30sec then back down to pre-brew flow pressure ~5sec and slightly overshot to 37g. Unfortunately didn't write down the full pressure time before display automatically went back to home, now I know! But it was somewhere around 80-90 sec total. Oh tamped via EZ-Tamp w/22lb spring.

Of course the shots were pulled a bit over a minute apart. And the Slayer shot a tad greater 0.9g yield. Shot on the right V on the left S. Even so they tasted extremely similar and both very good. The V shot was pretty spot on for how I've been pulling Delirium at home, obviously a LOT more playing with the Slayer to go! I did not expect the Slayer pre-brew to take as long as it did given the exact same weight (1/10g resolution) and grind.



More play later. I've got a bunch of cleaning up to do finding what little counter space I haven't stolen or Debi is going to kill me! She's also not too pleased with the temporary heavy extension cord running from the other side of the kitchen different circuit across behind the sink in front of the window so both machines can be powered up. But not really complaining much since she knows it won't be for long. And other than rolling her eyes she's pretty much given up on me a long time ago! :lol: Though she did say this will really be the last new espresso machine right? And I understand where she's coming from, it is the 5th different machine on our kitchen counter in under 5 years! I assured her it was my Bucketlist machine.
Mike McGinness

User avatar
Compass Coffee (original poster)
Posts: 2844
Joined: 19 years ago

#2: Post by Compass Coffee (original poster) »

One thing that surprised me a bit was the Slayer came with only one portafilter. Which means they expect you to constantly switch back and forth between brew basket and blank using same PF. Both the Vesuvius and GS3 MP came with two PFs. Also Synesso ships PFs by number of groups plus one. Not a big deal since I have another PF dedicated for back flushing but at this price point makes me go hmmmm kind of seems cheaping out compared to the competition. Eh just thinking out loud.

After dinner pulled a couple Kenya shots for short Americanos. Pulled both from the Slayer so not a comparison. If taste memory serves me maybe a hair sweeter than same coffee Vesuvius pulled Americano. In the morning going to pull the same Kenya for wake up Americano from both S & V for head to head comparison. Just got back from the late showing of Star Trek Beyond and it's 1am so not pulling any now! Also looking forward to my 2nd cup of the morning cappuccino and first steaming with the Slayer. Then later in the day will likely do a few more head to head straight shot comparisons.

Thinking I'm going to raise the accumulator pressure from 20 to 25 to 30 to 35 psi and see if the Flojet can handle it. I know the Flojet is spec'd max 40 psi but don't know it's turn on pressure. To see how that affects pre-brew stage. If the Flojet will handle 30 or 35 psi accumulator pressure will then likely install the good regulator I have on hand at the Roastery (from Synesso) dialed back oh maybe 5 psi under accumulator set pressure.
Mike McGinness

Bill33525
Supporter ♡
Posts: 316
Joined: 10 years ago

#3: Post by Bill33525 »

Some commentary on the "taste" advantages of the long preinfusion would be interesting to most of us still on machines without that feature. Sharing timing details is of great interest as well. Good luck with the new gear.

chrisbodnarphoto
Posts: 457
Joined: 8 years ago

#4: Post by chrisbodnarphoto »

Loving this comparison and the detail in which you go to!

I'm definitely curious about the Slayer + FloJet combo and the outcome of your fiddling! I've been humming and hawing about that setup, but I know it can be a bit trickier with the Slayer than most.

User avatar
Compass Coffee (original poster)
Posts: 2844
Joined: 19 years ago

#5: Post by Compass Coffee (original poster) »

Bill33525 wrote:Some commentary on the "taste" advantages of the long preinfusion would be interesting to most of us still on machines without that feature. Sharing timing details is of great interest as well. Good luck with the new gear.
Sorry but I and others have done that type of commentary in the past. I don't intend to rehash shots with and without long low pressure preinfusion and end of shot lowered pressure stage here. Suffice it to say back summer of 2014 when I replaced my old Linea at the Roastery with a Synesso Cyncra and began exploring profiled shots was when I became dissatisfied with my QM V2B shot potential at home and replaced it Dec 2014 when the Vesuvius came out.
Mike McGinness

User avatar
Compass Coffee (original poster)
Posts: 2844
Joined: 19 years ago

#6: Post by Compass Coffee (original poster) »

One thing is abundantly clear: the Vesuvius display is much easier to see than Slayer display for my 62 year old weakening eyes. I have to put on my reading glasses to make out the Slayer display both because it's characters are much smaller and also because much dimmer. I've searched the manual and can find no way to increase display brightness or adjust contrast on the Slayer display. Plus goes to Vesuvius both for larger up-front display characters, isn't blocked using top for cup warmer and because Vesuvius display brightness is adjustable (IIRC correctly, maybe it's just color can be changed.) Regardless I can easily make out the Vesuvius display but have to squint and then sometimes still can't make out the Slayer display without grabbing reading glasses bit of PIA.

On the taste related note I pulled Kenya doubles from both when I first got up making 2 8oz Americanos. Been sipping back and forth from hot to now cold. (water added ~180f from filtered hot-water on demand at sink NOT either machines hot water tap neither of which has mixing feature to attenuate steam boiler water). And the taste winner is: virtually indistinguishable hot to cold dead even tie. Just did another dozen back and forth cupping style aerated spray your whole mouth tastes and still say it's a tie.

Slayer hot-water tap. Multi-group Slayer machines have mixing valve to attenuate hot-water tap temp. Didn't realize they left it off the single group until after ordering (though would not have been a deal breaker.) Advantage here goes to GS3 and single group Hydra which both having mixing valve to get decent lower hot-water tap temp.
Mike McGinness

User avatar
Compass Coffee (original poster)
Posts: 2844
Joined: 19 years ago

#7: Post by Compass Coffee (original poster) »

Cup clearance: every morning I make Debi a first cup of the morning quad shot Americano usually pulled directly into a big mug that's 4-5/8" tall. It just barely fits under Vesuvius bottomless and also fit under QM V2B and VBM DD and Bricoletta. It just barely does not fit under Slayer bottomless. On inspection it's because the nekkid PF itself is deeper on the Slayer vs Vesuvius. Partially because the PF body itself is deeper but also the angled handle. Oh well now have to pull her shots into demi first.

After making Debi's quad Americano made my Sunday morning breve cap'. (DP Ethiopia) Yeah baby that's what I'm talking about, steam for that cap with great texture in what 10 seconds (didn't actually time it and don't plan/need to). Suffice it to say about identical to using my Synesso 4 x 1mm hole tip at the Roastery (use 6 x 1mm hole tip other wand at the Roastery for 12 & 16oz lattes). I don't steam often at home but when I do I want and now have steam power just like I'm accustomed to professionally. Obviously Slayer wins over Vesuvius (takes about twice as long) when it comes to steaming, never had any doubt of that outcome!

Slayer paddle versus Vesuvius lever: after using Synessos with paddle and GS MP/Strada with paddle I prefer paddle. Slayer vs Synesso vs LM paddles I like the Slayer very substantial looking and feeling paddle best. Of the 3 exposed saturated group styles themselves it's a toss up between Slayer and Synesso which I think looks best but both like the looks better than LM group. Vesuvius modified E61 looks like any other E61 group and of course requires brief warming flush from idle which saturated groups do not.
Mike McGinness

User avatar
Compass Coffee (original poster)
Posts: 2844
Joined: 19 years ago

#8: Post by Compass Coffee (original poster) »

Well as you can see S & V are no longer side by side. I knew if I didn't move the Vesuvius today likely wouldn't happen until next weekend.


Vesuvius now on a table in the garage so I'll still be able to do shot comparisons if I choose to. That's one advantage of the Vesuvius, whether running strictly off tank or plumbed always actually drawing from the tank so zero pump etc. adjustments needed.

After this mornings wake-up Kenya Americanos pulled from both comparison didn't do any further shot comparisons. Don't feel the need. They are both extremely capable shot profile machines. Decided this after my first walk up Slayer Delirium straight shot early afternoon. After that shot I turned off the Vesuvius to move.

After my breakfast breve cap' I did up the accumulator pressure. While I pressurized it empty to 20 psi, now with water in it checked it's pressure @ 30 psi so further pressurized to 40 psi. Flojet handles refilling at that pressure no problem. I re-calibrated needle valve for 40g in 30sec. What was ~40sec pre-brew now ~32sec pre-brew for Delirium shot. I may or may not fiddle with the accumulator further. Probably will but not today. First want to bring home and install the Synesso pressure regulator.

Most highly likely this Slayer is my bucklist final home machine. (Unless I add a lever to go with it) Or really get successful biz wise and move where a big home espresso bar with the Slayer, and a Speedster, and a Hydra (and a single group Strada if it ever materializes) and Londinium (and/or other lever) can all reside at once in some kind of home living espresso showcase. Nuts to even think that way I know, but I always say sanity is highly over rated! :lol:

Oh my pewter coffee slurping dragon Debi got me many many moons ago for Miss Silvia has also enjoyed his journey and likes his new home. From Missy to Fiorenzato Bricoletta to Vibiemme Double Domo to Quickmill Vetrano 2B to Vesuvius to his new Slayer digs what a crazy ride!
Mike McGinness

User avatar
tohenk2
Posts: 314
Joined: 9 years ago

#9: Post by tohenk2 »

Compass Coffee wrote:And other than rolling her eyes she's pretty much given up on me a long time ago! :lol:
That can't be true :)

Compass Coffee wrote:One thing is abundantly clear: the Vesuvius display is much easier to see than Slayer display for my 62 year old weakening eyes ... and because Vesuvius display brightness is adjustable (IIRC correctly, maybe it's just color can be changed.) .
The contrast can be changed on the V - if you go into the advanced menu it is the second option you can set.
(To refresh memory -also my own-: If the machine is off, tap and hold the corner down to the left for 10 seconds to enter the advanced menu.)

Compass Coffee wrote:And the taste winner is: virtually indistinguishable hot to cold dead even tie. Just did another dozen back and forth cupping style aerated spray your whole mouth tastes and still say it's a tie.
And this is what counts the most for me! (Doing a happy dance since I own a V and was/still am interested in the Slayer)

Compass Coffee wrote:Slayer hot-water tap. Multi-group Slayer machines have mixing valve to attenuate hot-water tap temp. Didn't realize they left it off the single group until after ordering (though would not have been a deal breaker.) Advantage here goes to GS3 and single group Hydra which both having mixing valve to get decent lower hot-water tap temp.
This I find slightly annoying as well. Minor - but still hope to change that one day. (Is there a way to retrofit somthing like this?)

Compass Coffee wrote: I don't steam often at home but when I do I want and now have steam power just like I'm accustomed to professionally. Obviously Slayer wins over Vesuvius (takes about twice as long) when it comes to steaming, never had any doubt of that outcome!.
Indeed as expected. To put this into a bit of perspective, My sister finds the steampower of the V almost to great - and she has a ECM HX. I wonder if the new Slayer Steam is even more effective, and if it ever will be something one can retrofit.

Compass Coffee wrote:Slayer paddle versus Vesuvius lever: after using Synessos with paddle and GS MP/Strada with paddle I prefer paddle. Slayer vs Synesso vs LM paddles I like the Slayer very substantial looking and feeling paddle best. Of the 3 exposed saturated group styles themselves it's a toss up between Slayer and Synesso which I think looks best but both like the looks better than LM group. Vesuvius modified E61 looks like any other E61 group and of course requires brief warming flush from idle which saturated groups do not..
Thanks for the comparison!

brianl
Posts: 1390
Joined: 10 years ago

#10: Post by brianl »

Compass Coffee wrote:Thinking I'm going to raise the accumulator pressure from 20 to 25 to 30 to 35 psi and see if the Flojet can handle it. I know the Flojet is spec'd max 40 psi but don't know it's turn on pressure. To see how that affects pre-brew stage. If the Flojet will handle 30 or 35 psi accumulator pressure will then likely install the good regulator I have on hand at the Roastery (from Synesso) dialed back oh maybe 5 psi under accumulator set pressure.
The accumulator pressure doesn't affect the pressure going to the machine. That is determined by the flojet/pump. Therefore, it will range from 40 to 25 psi with it being a slower decline due to the larger accumulator. Ideally, the accumulator should be set at 7psi.

Post Reply