Cimbali Junior vs M32 Bistro DT1 for small farmers market - Page 2

Recommendations for buyers and upgraders from the site's members.
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Compass Coffee
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#11: Post by Compass Coffee »

Alan,
This later reply struck me much differently
Almico wrote:Corporate life flipped me the bird last January. Instead of jumping back into the fire, I decided to test the roasting waters. Market season gave me the opportunity to step out and see what people thought about my coffee. I did very well, but once market season closed, I was not financially prepared to endure the winter so I grabbed another day job to pay the bills. This year I'm keeping the day job and working markets on weekends. It's a 7 day a week grind, but the dream is to be able to sustain on coffee alone by the end of market season 2017.
than your earlier reply.
Long term? To buy a mixed use property where I can live in the back and operate a small roastery up front. I'm 56, single, kids are almost gone and I figure that would be a nice way to live out the rest of this ride.
would be a nice way to live out the rest of this ride struck me as too wishy washy non-comitted for some reason.

Question: are you doing 2 Farmers Markets at the same time or 1 Saturday and 1 Sunday or ? Different set of can of worms!

I still believe using an espresso machine to brew "sample" cups before someone buying a bag not a good way to go. Would need to be single dosing of course but biggest issue is needing different grind different coffees. Heck dialing in a small Aeropress brewing could be a better way to go. I dig the wind challenge of pour overs outdoors. When I was still doing our main Farmers Market (Sat & Sun so single setup teardown) I had a custom printed canopy with walls for all 4 sides if needed. When windy would have the back and sides on and helped a lot. The brew station was also setup about dead center middle front to back of the canopy. Did this so a small area for people to stand in front under cover if/when raining. Only put the front wall on for buttoning up over night even though it has a zippered door and window. I also realize the convenience of batch brewing but was unwilling to compromise extremely long hold times. That said I did small batch brewing onsite via 2 Bonavita brewers into Airpots. These weren't primarily for by the cup sales but rather free tasting samples. (4oz paper cups) I had an airpot for each type of coffee on the shelf and dumped refilled each airpot with fresh brewed every hour and a half. By the cup sales of hot coffee was almost 100% V60 pour over, similar wood 4 station. I offered 3 pour over coffee choices at a time using timed grinding 3 Virtuoso/Esato. Water heated for pour overs via 3 Bonita electric kettles to keep up when busy. Plus used a Ditting 804 for bulk bag grinding or a decaf pour over. I didn't do espresso simply because was not allowed to because of Market politics and a terrible hack already had an espresso cart at the Market. I used a beast of a generator (also the Rolls Royce of generators) Honda EU 6500is (current model 7000is). Funny thing it is quieter under load than other people's EU1000, EU2000 or EU3000s!

If you do decide to go espresso route you will 100% want/need a pitcher rinser. In addition to Flojet a 2 gallon accumulator which can feed both. I also had mine feeding a 1 gallon water heater that fed hand wash sink hotwater line. (Had wheeled 6' cart all this stuff mounted and did pour overs from) Used that preheated hand sink filtered water to fill Bonavita kettles to reduce heat to temp times.

Espresso wise I've also done a goodly number of outdoor (and indoor) events. While you stated you didn't want to run a cafe if espresso machine in use that is exactly what people want and expect, cafe type offerings that just happen not to be at fixed brick & mortar location. For number of years I used an old 110v butt ugly 1gr 6l boiler Brasilia picked up CL that could kick butt non-stop. (Do have a gorgeous customized GS3 MP for events now.)

BTW I do believe either of the Cimbali's in question would keep up with moderate paced demands including milk bevs. Just not used for filling for pour over or tapping for too hot of water for Americanos! (Separate Bonavita electric kettle or Zoji' dialed down ~175f for Americanos) OR if doing a LOT of pour overs and Americano etc. a Fetco TOD tower (Have 2 of them in our main Downtown Coffeehouse, sweet units. Have 2 because didn't plan well enough ahead for 220v version so have 2 110v instead for peak demand times)

Keep fighting the good fight. Expect to get knocked down and have failures knowing that no failure is permanent unless you don't get back up and keep moving forward.
Mike McGinness

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Almico (original poster)
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#12: Post by Almico (original poster) »

Wow, that sounds like quite the set up you had going. More than my little eu2000i can handle, and my pocket isn't ready for a 7000i. Maybe next year.

I'm doing one market Saturday, another Sunday. I leave everything in the SUV overnight and just need to restock supplies and bags if necessary. It's not so bad; it only takes about 20 seconds to set up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udDC0qLVMNY

I have been using an Aeropress for single serve samples and decaf. I also sell them, not so much to make money, but to try and kick a few pod machines to the curb. I figure the more I can educate someone about making good coffee, the more likely they are to buy good coffee. So far it's been effective.

I would go back to the drip station if I could get the process down. I have walls for my canopy, and used them last year when I set up for a week at a country fair, but they seem isolating for an open farmers market. I can also bring my Forte along with my bulk grinder, but I would need 3 or 4 weight-based grinders to be able to offer a suitable variety. I have a wholesale account with Baratza and can buy Vario Ws for the task. Maybe a few 270W Settes when they hit the market.

What I have been doing so far is featuring 2 coffees a week in the hot pots as well as another for cold brew. This gives regulars a chance to sample all of my blends at one point or another. I don't really feel a need to offer samples before someone buys a bag. I ask them a few questions about their current coffee habits and what they are looking for in a coffee. Then I make a suggestion and they buy. I try to put forward a disarming attitude that "it's only a bag of coffee", not a new car. Not much risk in buying any coffee that was roasted a day ago. That said, I save the natural Ethiopians for later in the relationship!

So I guess my interest in bring along an espresso machine is just to showcase how my coffee tastes in that form as well as add another item to the menu. If it adds too much to my set up, I'll pass and maintain the status quo.

I'm always keeping an eye out for the brick and mortar location, but that ties me to one spot. With farmers markets I can be anywhere and have a concentrated audience for 5 hours.

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Compass Coffee
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#13: Post by Compass Coffee »

Almico wrote:Wow, that sounds like quite the set up you had going. More than my little eu2000i can handle, and my pocket isn't ready for a 7000i. Maybe next year.
As you may (or may not) know you could also double your current power capacity adding an eu2000ic (Companion for about $1k). Connected with your current eu2000i would give you 4000w peak instead of current 2000.
Mike McGinness

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Almico (original poster)
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#14: Post by Almico (original poster) »

I actually have the Smarter Tools 2000W with the Yamaha MZ80 engine. So it's only $600 for a second + $60 for the parallel cable.

But I'm only bringing in $300-$350 a day, $6-700 for the weekend. I have to assess whether adding to my equipment will actually translate into more business. These are small town markets that see 350-450 people total per day. But I want to stay in this area because this is where I live and also where I want to eventually set up the brick and mortar. It's worth it to me to give up a bit on daily sales compared to larger markets in order to build a customer base in my neighborhood.

So I'm still looking at this older Cimbali Junior. It's local to me. I believe this version has a tank and vibe pump.


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Compass Coffee
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#15: Post by Compass Coffee »

Why not in line with keeping expenditures down test the espresso waters using your ECM Giotto? I'd do that before buying (another) tank/vibe machine even though it would be a faster steamer. If/when you do decide to buy a full commercial grade espresso machine I'd do it with the intention of it being suitable to use if/when opening brick & mortar Roastery to also have a coffee bar. Not a full blown decked out coffeehouse but if you're going to be there roasting anyway paying rent why not a espresso/coffee bar too?
Mike McGinness

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Almico (original poster)
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#16: Post by Almico (original poster) »

I thought about bringing the Giotto. I'll have to check the wattage; I don't remember off hand. I hate to bang it up though. That's why I thought the Epoca, with it's plastic sides might be a good alternative if I can get one at a decent price.

That was my thinking with the shop. I learned that lesson last year when I started the markets. At first I only intended to sell beans and thought about a small brewing station so people could sample. But within the first 2 weeks the demand for coffee was so great I had to address it. Coffee drinks soon became 40% of my revenue and I liked the immediate feedback when I hand someone a coffee and they say "wow".

So while I don't want to be a starbucks clone, I wouldn't mind being the place in town where the "good stuff" is brewed. There are one or two coffee shops in the area, but we don't have a "coffee guy". I like being the coffee guy, where people can come and talk about everything coffee. I can picture a nice 2-3 group Bosco or a nice, hammered copper Victoria Arduino on the counter. Maybe I could team up with a baker and we can share the building expenses.

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Compass Coffee
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#17: Post by Compass Coffee »

Almico wrote:I do not want to operate a cafe.
Coffee drinks soon became 40% of my revenue and I liked the immediate feedback when I hand someone a coffee and they say "wow".
Somewhat contradictory statements! To an extent you already are operating a cafe - a weekend outdoor cafe. Add espresso beverage selections appropriately priced and I'd expect bevs to be more like 60 to 70% of your revenue. Whether a good or bad thing depends on point of view and business goals. Only you can decide what direction to take your business.
Mike McGinness

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Almico (original poster)
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#18: Post by Almico (original poster) »

Compass Coffee wrote:Somewhat contradictory statements!
Yeah, you caught me. I am definitely conflicted. I think my major block is I don't see myself with a crop of employees. Maybe one or two, but I can't man a cafe 6am to 11pm. I have had a few businesses in my day, but all have been one man shows. I suppose at the very least I would need to bring on a barista. I can make a drink for myself or a few people, but serving them non-stop is another issue.

So I'll eventually have to sort out the business model. I love roasting. I love talking about coffee. I enjoy turning someone on to a great cup of coffee, but I don't want to do it 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. Where does that leave me? The good news is I don't have to do anything about it right now. And I'm old enough to have learned that the right situation has a way of presenting itself at the right time. Now is not the time. Dues still to pay and all that.

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Compass Coffee
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#19: Post by Compass Coffee »

Who said anything about being open and working 16 hour days 7 days a week? You did!

At my Roastery, which has a coffee bar, I now have one 3/4 time employee. I did run it solo for a number of years. Roasting, bagging, covering bar. It's located in what I call a light industrial wasteland open hours 8am to 5pm M-F. I opened the bar a year after starting to roast there. Figured I'm there daily roasting anyway might as well. The retail bar doesn't do gang busters but does more than enough to pay the rent and utilities. I could survive if just had the Roastery location but would be roasting half what I am now and not be as profitable. In fact might be roasting less than half because a number of wholesale accounts came as result of reputation of my Downtown Coffeehouse.

OTOH my Downtown main Coffeehouse location (where people are) now has 11 full time employees including a Store Manager and is open 'til 9pm 7 days a week opening at 5am M-F and 7am S&S. I work there zero bar shifts. Last month Downtown averaged $315 per day in bag-o-beans sales with a total $2031.40 gross average daily. Lots more bevs and support pastries than beans! Actually sold more pastries gross dollar wise last month than beans but beans much more profitable.

Employees are/can be your greatest asset and biggest headache at the same time. Finding and keeping really good employees an ongoing challenge. And while payroll is my number one expense item without my great employees I'd be making 2 to $3k less profit in my pocket per month without them.

That said during the long recession to keep the business going and doors open I did work 90 usually well over 100 hour weeks. Week after week month after month. Went 3 years taking a few partial days off here and there with 1 full day off. One full day off in 3 years, ludicrous! But you do what ya gotta do when failure isn't an option. And it literally almost killed me ending up in the ER on deaths door. Long story short fortunately the worst of the recession was over and immediately cut back to 60-70 hour weeks with usually one day off per week. Couple more years gone by and now 40-50 hour weeks (less than that just feels weird) usually taking both Sat & Sun off. Last year took first full week vacation in 9 years and this year after a week on the Big Island of Hawaii in January taking a 2nd week off in September for our 37th Anniversary going to Maui for the first time. Like I said it's been a long rough road but the light at the end of tunnel is no longer a Freight Train! :lol:

Sorry for the long ramble. See what happens when I only work an 8 hour day! Today only roasted 105lb while covering the bar from 8am to 12:30, kegged 10 gals of cold brew I made yesterday, made a couple more 5 gal cold brew batches to be kegged tomorrow, took out the garbage and left leaving Chelsea to finish the bagging, stage bean order for Downtown and cover afternoon bar. (Doing 50+ gallons cold brew a week at the moment). Yesterday roasted 142lb, so feel like a slacker. :wink:
Mike McGinness

Headala
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#20: Post by Headala »

I have no plans to start a cafe, roastery, or farmers market business but golly this is interesting following this thread. Thanks guys!