Older commercial levers vs newer commercial/prosumer levers? - Page 2

#11: Post by **samuellaw178** » June 26th, 2016, 7:09 pm

JohnB. wrote:Are any of those chrome? Bosco is polished stainless steel.

My bad. Not chrome (none of them are AFAIK), they're stainless steel. My use of 'chrome' was referring to the color hue rather than the actual material (wasn't thinking that far

)

To OP, here's one very good write up by Doug (OrphanEspresso) who has probably played with (ooops,I mean restored) way more levers than any one of us had combined.

He's referring to the older Faema with thermosyphon group but do seem to hold high regards to other older levers in general.

Doug wrote:This is why I feel strongly that these old machines are actually very highly engineered designs and not at all primitive....they do not have extensive digitally driven control systems but rather use a lot of physics and thermodynamics to operate more or less passively but at a high level of specificity, but they still are completely charming as all get out and seem to produce espresso almost as by magic....quite captivating actually and as I said, much more complex than they seem at first glance.

Kees Idrocompresso?

#12: Post by **realdoctor** » June 26th, 2016, 8:43 pm

The lever machine solved most of the difficult problems in making good espresso half a century ago with very simple technology. The big chunk of brass group radiates heat and creates pretty good temperature stability. The machine pre-infuses very well. The pressure profile is excellent. Part of the elegance of the old machines is the fact that they did so much with simple tech.

There have been a few things I think of as improvements. HX levers have the advantage of making coffee with fresh water. Boiler water never tastes as good. A few dispense hot water from a tap on the HX, also a plus.

As Roger Barrett has pointed out, modern pressure stats save water - although the old wobble weights actually work pretty well and they also provide a simple solution to dangerous over-pressure. Wobble weights are still used on pressure cookers in exactly the way they were used on espresso machines until around the 1970's.

Autofill can save the heating element from barista incompetence. My neighborhood café just gave up their 1948 Gaggia Classica after the second time a barista let it run dry and burned out the element.

Otherwise, there really isn't much to improve.

Jim

#13: Post by **samuellaw178** » June 26th, 2016, 9:10 pm

realdoctor wrote: Autofill can save the heating element from barista incompetence. My neighborhood café just gave up their 1948 Gaggia Classica after the second time a barista let it run dry and burned out the element.

Ouch! That's a shame! Is that Gaggia a dipper or HX? With a HX lever and large boiler, I find that the chance is reduced greatly as you don't draw any water directly from the boiler other than steaming (and always refill the boiler once the sight glass is lower than 50% - they probably don't burn until <10%). Not a problem in home use as my water level hardly reduces but I can see it is a risk in cafe to do without autofill (no way with a dipper). However, if you're in hard water area, using a good water softener and interval refresh of the boiler water then becomes more important. I make my breakfast (oat+chocolate) using the hot water wand so no problemo (as I said - all machines have some quirks and you live with the quirks by modding or adapting to it sometimes without realizing

).

June 27th, 2016, 6:45 am

So in the design of the groups things haven't changed that much in half a century? Pretty impressive. I always thought that the older levers were capable of great espresso when used correctly, like smaller vintage levers are, but i didn't expect that they can hold their own against never machines. It seems that the "new" levers aren't really that new, but just classic levers with smaller upgrades and such, is this at least partly correct?
All the bigger levers that we are talking about here were made for commercial use right? I know that many now use the one or two group machines at home but when they were designed and sold as new they were never really intended for homes right?

I ask because i've often read that one of the big problems with vintage levers at home is that people often have to work around their commercial design. The main problem seems to be the need for them to be plumbed in, since that would make total sense in a cafe or restaurant but isn't as smart for home use?

All these questions might seem a bit weird or obvious to someone who has used a vintage lever, but for someone who is new to this part of the hobby it's very hard to know what problems would be easily to solve/work around and which are complete deal breakers, since we all have different opinions on when a problem is easily solved.

#15: Post by **Balthazar_B** » June 27th, 2016, 8:44 am

Plumbed-in makes total sense at home, unless you're renting an apartment and can't do so.

June 27th, 2016, 10:03 am

What about when water quality isn't very good for coffee brewing? While the water in most of Denmark is very clean with no chloride or anything like that, it's very hard and will quickly scale up most machines and make a lot of coffee taste flat and boring. There are of course users in Denmark that use systems like RO to get quality water, but the most prevalent method is just using bottled water.
Are there any simple ways of using a machine meant for plumping without plumping it in? I assume one can't just fill the boiler like on a lot of smaller levers, but are the alternatives good or more trouble then they are worth? I'm asking because i will soon be living in a rented apartment and i would like to at some point own a vintage lever.

#17: Post by **donn** » June 27th, 2016, 10:35 am

Where the municipal water won't do, I believe people put some kind of treatment apparatus inline - probably less trouble than maintaining a supply of bottled water - but I don't know from experience, our water here is alpine snow runoff.

Plumbing for water may sound harder than it is. Basically done by adding a "T" fitting under the sink and attaching an ice maker hose.

The one I haven't really solved is the drain. Under normal circumstances it's very low flow, may not even make it out of the drip pan where a lot of solid black stuff piles up. If there's a slow drip, though, like if someone leaves the hot water tap open just a hair, you want it plumbed into the sewer or there will be brown water all over the floor. We've made do for years with a pan, but with plenty of regrettable incidents.

#18: Post by **dominico** » June 27th, 2016, 10:57 am

A popular way to plumb a machine without actually plumbing a machine is to use something like a Flojet pump and a reservoir. One benefit here is that it is a less expensove way to control your water quality than attaching a series of filters to a straight plumb in.

#19: Post by **JohnB.** » June 27th, 2016, 10:58 am

As long as you are draining into a vented drain line you shouldn't have a slow drain flow. I added a dishwasher drain take off under the sink & use a large(1/2" or 3/4"? ID) drain line from the machine.

As far as hard water goes a generic 2 cartridge filter set up under the sink should solve the issue. One holds a softener cartridge, the other a carbon filter. Adding a simple adjustable bypass allows you to add back some hard water after the softener cartridge so you can keep the hardness in the 2-3 grains (40PPM) range.

#20: Post by **joatmon** » June 27th, 2016, 1:48 pm

CoffeeBeetle wrote:Hey guys

The other tread about commercial vs non-commercial made me think of a question that i haven't really been able to find a satisfying answer to. Since the general idea of spring levers haven't changed that much since the 1950-1960 i assume(apart from things like a Strega and probably other fun machines i don't know about), what innovation has happened with the bigger spring levers that are being made today? I have read a lot of good things about users with older commercial Gaggia lever or Conti Prestina machines that say that they are different but not necessarily worse than modern lever machines like the Londinium.

I assume that there are plenty of differences between a Strega(besides the pump), Londinium and probably other modern lever machines compared to these older levers, but since i haven't used them personally i'm having trouble finding out what they are. Are we talking steaming capability, temp stability, shot quality, ease of repair and maintenance or something else entirely?

I understand that giving me a simple and straightforward answer to this question is almost impossible. Probably not a lot of people feel like they know the complete answer and can make that " one comparison to rule them all", but it would be great just to hear the opinions of those who have experience with machines from both camps.

So phrasing the question as simple as i can: I buy a old commercial lever, if it's scaled up and need new gaskets i fix these things but i don't mod or improve it and i buy a Londinium(or something else in that range, i don't know a lot of levers in that price range) and i use them both of them as my daily machines. What difference am i going to experience?

For the last 5 years, I have been using a Faema Lambro build in 1959. I have not used a newer lever, but I've had coffee from several newer levers at cafes. I can not answer your question directly, but I will add what I know about the old levers.

I love the coffee from the old Lambro. The coffee easily competes with the best I've had at better coffee houses.

The ease of use it outstanding. 90%+ of my shots are very good to excellent. Maybe 1 in a 100 is a "sink shot". It's very easy to get a great shot.

The Lambro is very temperature stable and I never do a warming or cooling flush. I've never used an instrument to verify this - the taste buds tell me there's little temp variation.

I can steam 3 or 4 oz of milk in 10 seconds. If making a cappuccino, I steam the milk while pulling the shot.

The maintenance is very easy. I've replaced seals once and I clean and lube the piston every 3 - 6 months. It's a 15 minute job.

I manually fill the boiler every 3 or 4 days. I don't believe autofill would help in a meaningful way for a home user.

I'm totally satisfied with my old Lambro and have no desire for a new machine or a second machine.

Now, in the interest of fairness, I do see where some may like the newer levers with more ease of doing frequent and/or quick changes to the brewing temp and/or to the pressure profile. I simply use the Lambro as an appliance to get my morning coffee. I have no desire to "experiment" or wring the last little nuance out of a coffee bean. I do respect those who are in that pursuit.

Enjoy your journey!