How do you get sweetness in coffee? - Page 3

Coffee preparation techniques besides espresso like pourover.
treq10 (original poster)
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#21: Post by treq10 (original poster) »

Thank you all for your thoughts. There's a lot to consider here.

I think starting with good coffee is a given for getting sweetness. Not all good coffees have to be very conspicuously sweet, but I believe that any coffee that has balance and complexity must have some level of sweetness to offset acidity. So yes, you are right that I need to start with the right coffee, and I do. I've come to the point that I can distinguish the quality of roast (under/over-development) because you don't need to pull off the perfect cup to detect this. So my issues are less about sourcing the right coffee. Essentially, I am trying to gather information on how I can improve my technique.

It was interesting to hear about how the vario produces better brewing vs. the lido2. The lido 2 does produce a significant amount of fines (~10%), and I think this is messing with my brewing. However, I've had some really sweet cups through the lido2, and I think it has much more to do with my technique than anything else.

One thing I was considering was extraction of sugars in relation to time of brew. In Nick Cho's video, he talks about hydrolysis of reducing sugars and how this is dependent on time it takes for the center of the grounds to be extracted. Without proper time and temperature, the outer layers of the coffee particles can be over-extracted and the inside layers underextracted. Thinking about this made realize a couple of things I had to account for with regard to my method:

1. Coarser grinding requires longer brewing time, slower pours, water level to not exceed height of coffee bed by more than 10-20% (in beehouse or V60). If coffee particles are larger, I need to ensure that the outside layers of particles don't overextract before the inside fully extracts. I think the proper technique for this kind of brewing is pulse brewing in small increments for longer period of time (3-3.5 mins). Perhaps a big part of this equation is also for the slurry to have a lower average temperature over time than if I were to brew with finer grinds. It makes sense as the water I'm pouring out of the kettle at 2:45-3:15 will be significantly cooler than the water I'm finishing off at 1:30 on a finer grind brew.

2. Finer grinding requires significantly shorter brewing time. With a finer grind, the surface area of coffee particles could be exponentially greater than a coarser grind. This means that it isn't impractical to cut down brew time to 2 minutes or less if the grinds are fine enough. The average temp of slurry is also higher during the duration than a longer brew. Therefore, over-extraction is such a huge possibility in this setting that I need to speed up my brewing even more than I'm used to.

3. Consistency is hard! I've been playing around with too many variables at once. After watching Tim Wendelboe's periscope on manual brewing, and of course your helpful comments here, I'm realizing that I really have to stick to one method and adjust one variable at a time.

With that I'm going to try to start with this brewing method as a baseline, and change only one variable (grind size) at a time to see how the result changes.

Brewer - V60-02
Brewing temp - Right off boil into preheated kettle @ 130F
Grind size - 1 full turn from 0 on Lido 2 (This would count as finer grinding for me, where as 1.25 turns takes it to medium and 1.5 to coarse)
Coffee - 23g
Water - 370g
Bloom - 50g quick pour with stir (a la perger), 30s
Pouring technique - Pour 320g in one shot by 1:15

Right now I have a washed processed Ethiopian from Stumptown that is rather underdeveloped (amazing acidity and aroma with the classic hay/dirt finish of under-development). If I can hit sweetness on any of the brews for the next few days I will update you on my findings. If not, I will likely have to wait until I snag a batch of Wendelboe's or I get to roast my own when I get my next set of greens from Sweet Maria's.

Until then, thank you for your advice and hoping to learn more!

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cimarronEric
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#22: Post by cimarronEric »

MyCchiato wrote:... he said he is already using sweet coffee so to get it bitter he must be "burning" it for sure I don't see other way to get a bitter coffee out of a sweet one.
Bitter comes from over extraction, which may partially be a result of the water temp, but ultimately is from the entire process.
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RC15
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#23: Post by RC15 »

treq10 wrote:...It was interesting to hear about how the vario produces better brewing vs. the lido2.
In my experience the Vario with steel burrs produces a lot of fines and bitter coffee. Unfortunately, reducing fines requires taking the grind so coarse that sourness ensues. I've not been able to strike a happy medium and produce good pourovers grinding with the Vario (steel burrs). I switched back to the Virtuoso, and the cups have been terrific again.

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baldheadracing
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#24: Post by baldheadracing replying to RC15 »

I realize that it is an incredibly tedious process and takes the better part of an afternoon, but have you adjusted/mounted the burrs in your Vario for best alignment? Your taste experience seems atypical, and is consistent with an alignment issue. (Fines are a separate issue.)

As an aside, poor performance caused by mis-alignment was also an issue with early Vario users, but that was discovered to be because the outer upper burr mounting surfaces were not meticulously cleaned when the upper burr and mount were removed (e.g., for cleaning). The manual was later updated to reflect that need. (I have found that the outer mount surfaces can be quite stubborn in retaining coffee. Quite a PITA to clean!)
-"Good quality brings happiness as you use it" - Nobuho Miya, Kamasada

RC15
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#25: Post by RC15 replying to baldheadracing »

No, I've not tried that. When I contacted Baratza about my experience, they indicated that some people simply prefer the grind from conical burrs. Your suggestion is far more encouraging. I'll give it a try. As of now, my Vario is gathering dust in a closet. Thank you for the tip!

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