Bill33525 wrote:Hello Again-

Is there an espresso repair shop in your town or close by? Perhaps have a pro look at your setup?
Hope this helps.

I'd love either but know of neither....

DanoM wrote:To test the grind and make sure it's not your grinder you could buy some beans at a cafe and have them "espresso grind" a portion so you can test them in your machine - as quickly as you can get home. It won't be dialed in, but you can use it for evaluation purposes adjusting the dose as necessary to test the machine.

That's a great idea, thanks

DanoM wrote:I don't see any mention of the thermosiphon in this thread. Have you inspected that path for scale or other issues? If the group isn't heating up evenly and properly you can get undertemp shots that will be all over the place in flavor, flow and quality. If there is enough scale in the line or the group heating area the thermosiphon might not work.

This is the first really plausible theory I've yet heard. I'd not know a thermosiphon if one landed on my head mind you....

DanoM wrote:Another thing to test is the pump flow. If it's not even you'll get strange shots that way too. Without a load in the PF time water into a cup, and see if the second cup fills in relatively the same amount of time without turning off the pump. Testing the pump under load requires a valve on your PF spout, and I'm assuming we don't have those tools available for testing both at the same time.

First test was 11 seconds, then 13 seconds to fill the same cup - but I'll do some more testing before reading too much into this.....

Sounds like your pump flow is fine. 2 seconds might be the difference between the first surge and the rest. If you start the flow, put the cup under and count, then do another cup and count they are probably going to be really close. I wouldn't worry about the difference between 11 seconds and 13 seconds at this point - not yet anyway.

Unfortunately I don't have a Brewtus, but there are a few discussions in the forums past that discuss the thermosiphon stalling and other issues related to that. Maybe someone here with a Brewtus can give you some direct pointers on checking that?

Regarding the thermosyphon, yes that is why I suggested in an earlier post that you check the temperature. You will need either Eric's thermometer or a Scace portafilter to get an accurate measure of the group head temperature.

If the temps proved to be on the low side, which would explain your symptoms, then I would suggest you check the machine for scale and potentially a thermosyphon clog.

You can read about my prior experience with thermosyphon issues here:
Lessons in diagnosing brew temperature problems

HX tuning an ECM Technika

And if you search the forums you are sure to find plenty more that may even be relevant to your specific machine.

The thermosyphon is responsible for heating up and maintaining the group head temperature by using differences in temperature to circulate water from the boiler to the group head and back. Some machines use restrictors to limit the flow to prevent overheating of the group head and these are particularly susceptible to scale problems. That is why I asked about the water quality that you are using. If your water is hard then scale build up is likely over time and could easily cause this problem.

I guess what I could really do with is the ability to just get the machine serviced - sadly not currently something that (the extremely helpful) Bella Barista currently offer. I guess this is what you get by buying into a big name like LaMarzocco.

That said, the companies that offer to service seem to be aimed only at the pro market, since a service would cost about half the price of a whole new machine.....

Hello.

I have Alexia so maybe not the same (e61 but not HX) but when I get a thermosyphon stall the group head is very much cooler and the activation lever is stiff (because it's not warmed up). Hopefully someone else can let you know if it applies to your machine but if so, an easy thing to check.

Good luck - I know it's frustrating when you feel you're doing everything the same and it suddenly isn't working.

Bella Barista should surely be able to give you the name(s) of some local repair shops ?

That said, there are two things you can easily do which would assist in troubleshooting:

1. Measure the flow from the group (in ml/minute) over a 30 second time period - should be 450-500 ml/minute.

2. Inspect the grouphead for scale buildup as per this - Checking an E61 Espresso Machine for Scale

Post some pics of your efforts.

First attempt at checking for scale has failed - I don't have a spanner that is hefty enough to shift the lower of the two nuts at the top of the group which is wedged on pretty solid.....

I just pulled another shot (should have taken pics, damn) and while it wasn't the worst shot in the world, it wasn't good.

To elaborate a little further, if you look up at the naked PF as the shot happens, there is an uneven formation of drops initially (different every time) which matures into multiple streams across the basket, always with some areas, often in the middle of the basket completely untouched. Usually there will end up being around 4 distinct streams and sometimes a spritz or two thrown in too. This is on a regular grind - if I loosen the grind this does not change, you just the get same thing quicker; tighten ditto but spritzes happen more.

The result is a shot with actually fairly decent appearance but not much nice about the taste, which is thin and 'tired' is the best way I can describe it.

I'll try the flow test as well and try to remember to take some snaps when I can next face having another shot.....

erics wrote:
1. Measure the flow from the group (in ml/minute) over a 30 second time period - should be 450-500 ml/minute.

Ok - test completed - 30 seconds flow from the group produces....210ml.

So that's not good then. What causes this generally - is it a product of scale in the group? Or something else? I'll go buy a huge spanner for the E61 group in the meantime....

420 ml/minute is not "that far" out of bounds.

The best way to measure this is to first establish a full flow from the grouphead and then to simply slide a measuring vessel under the Portafilter and start the watch at the same time. Doing it three times and averaging the results gives you a number you should enter (and date) into the machines manual.