Tweaking sour espresso, now I'm stuck? - Page 3

Beginner and pro baristas share tips and tricks for making espresso.
neutro
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#21: Post by neutro »

entropy4money wrote:How used are you to drinking espresso?
Not sure if you're replying to me (the thread hijacker) or to the OP (SonVolt) -- our problems seem opposite.

I'd say I never drank as many espressos per week in the past 8 months :) I get a shot or two in reputable caffés whenever I can. Shots in cafés tend to be way more subdued than what I make at home. They're also typically more watery, even when I manage to pull a normale (50% brew ratio). In most case they are definitely more drinkable than what I make but sometimes I miss the thickness and intensity.
or most probably, you don't like "conventional" espresso.
It's true that I come from years of drinking mugs of filter coffee with a bit of milk & sugar, so espresso is definitely a different experience that takes time to get used to. That being said, more than ever I think, I can discern subtle flavors and also what went right or wrong in a shot. I know what I like and what I'm after. On the other hand, I have yet to find someone who thinks my intense shots are enjoyable without being dissolved in microfoamed milk. So I'd say there's a consensus about my shots being just too much, albeit admittedly, few espresso fans tasted them.
From my own experience over extracting results in a very intense, not well balanced coffee.
This could describe most of my shots. When I say they are "balanced", it depends of course on the bean. But bitterness or acidity is not the most shocking (although perhaps I'm just more accustomed to both now) --- there's a metallic tinge, almost a burning sensation on the tongue. And this is pulling either a normale or a ristretto, although ristrettos tend to fare better. Dosing higher tend to make things worse, and I dose typically pretty low for 3rd-wave style coffees (around 17g). Grinding coarser typically causes geysers in my naked portafilter, grinding finer doesn't really help unless I want >100% brew ratio ristrettos pulled in 40 sec.

***

Sorry if the questions / comments were more for SonVolt.

entropy4money
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#22: Post by entropy4money »

My post was directed towards OP, but your bring up important points. Espresso is a very strong flavoured drink, the most minimal change in its complexity makes a huge change for most espresso drinkers. When I say you don't like "conventional" espresso I refer to Italian espresso, and there is nothing wrong with that I think, I kind fall into that category as well, as Italian espresso is not my favourite. I grew up in Venezuela, never tried drip coffee in my life until coming to the U.S.A, never really tried anything other than espresso, macchiato, or cappuccino really. South american espresso tends to be single origin (in contrast with "conventional" which is usually a blend). South american espresso tends to be rich, and very thick, and traditionally made with 14gr dose, which is very close to what Italian espresso is. Basically, a south american espresso is usually pretty close to a single-origin Italian espresso.

Here in the U.S. sadly, I haven't tried a high quality espresso (to my taste), I've tried decent shots. But they are usually very bitter in low quality cafes like starbucks, or extremely sour and unbalanced (to my taste) in high end cafes, and generally kind of large. I think people tend to shoot towards bitterness because they are used to drip coffee and they like that flavour. Then they try Italian espresso and make their espresso too sour.... Is U.S. espresso bad? No. Is U.S. espresso "conventional" espresso? No. Is U.S. espresso, espresso? Yes.

My point is, call it ristretto, Lungo, espresso, or anything else, they are all made in espresso machines and consist of the same basic brewing principle. So whatever you like to drink, that's what you like, that's what you enjoy. It doesn't make your espresso better or worst, it is just different than what the average espresso drinker is used to drink.

That's my general opinion.

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boar_d_laze
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#23: Post by boar_d_laze »

Yes. Sourness results from under extraction. Sorry. Corrected.

Rich
Drop a nickel in the pot Joe. Takin' it slow. Waiter, waiter, percolator

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#24: Post by EspressoForge »

Reading this thread I can't help but think that many are getting different signals from their taste buds, and interpreting them as something else. It's quite hard in the beginning to distinguish between true sours, astringency, and even sometimes bitterness.

Take a look at the sticky, as Jim explains these, and what correction to make much better than I could:
Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste

All-in-all, I would say explore the extraction space with the particular coffee first to determine the best grind & dose setting. Once you're happy with that then mess with the temperature. Most problems are much easier to correct by grind and dose than they are to fix by temperature.

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SonVolt (original poster)
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#25: Post by SonVolt (original poster) replying to EspressoForge »


The "sourness" (or what I identify as sour) tastes strongest when a shot gushes out in 15 seconds. The entire shot is sour from start to finish - really makes me pucker. That's what I'm calling sour. In a Cafe when I'm served espresso there's a definite sourness up front that quickly fades into the chocolaty notes that I enjoy as the aftertaste lingers. This is what I'm currently chasing, but I can't seem to tame the sourness. It lingers a little too long and the chocolate notes aren't coming through as much.

I dropped the machine back 199F as a starting reference and will try more shots in the following days. I may end up dropping back to 14grams of coffee and going back up to 18F also. I guess this is all part of learning the variables through experience.

As far as beans - I'm using Counter Culture Big Trouble, so I'm not positive if that's a light or dark roasted blend.

https://counterculturecoffee.com/store/ ... ig-trouble

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#26: Post by EspressoForge »

SonVolt wrote:The "sourness" (or what I identify as sour) tastes strongest when a hot runs fast, gushes out in 15 seconds. The entire shot is sour from start to finish. When I've been served espresso in Cafes there's a definite sourness up front that quickly fades into the chocolaty notes that I enjoy as the aftertaste lingers. I dropped the machine back 199F as a starting reference and will try more shots in the following days. I may end up dropping back to 14grams of coffee and going back up to 18F also.

As far as beans - I'm using Counter Culture Big Trouble, so I'm not positive if that's a light or dark roasted blend.

https://counterculturecoffee.com/store/ ... ig-trouble
I would say based on your description you are likely tasting astringency from under-extraction. Try tightening your grind, running the shot longer or dosing higher...or some combination thereof.

The cafe sourness is more likely true sourness from a light roast level. This is the type of sourness that can be corrected by temperature in my experience. Either way, YMMV and maybe some other parameter needs to be changed.

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SonVolt (original poster)
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#27: Post by SonVolt (original poster) replying to EspressoForge »


I think astringency is a good descriptor - I can feel the sourness, it's quite heavy. I have noticed the finer I'm grinding the less crema I'm getting and the faster it dissipates. Is that normal?

brianl
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#28: Post by brianl »

Why do you care about crema? It's actually quite bitter. You definitely need to tighten up the grind. 15 seconds is very short

Crema and light roasts are inverse of each other.

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SonVolt (original poster)
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#29: Post by SonVolt (original poster) replying to brianl »


My shot times aren't 15 seconds, i was using that as a frame of reference for what i call sour. Back on page 1 I said my shot times were running in the upper 30s to 40s - too long.

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canuckcoffeeguy
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#30: Post by canuckcoffeeguy »

I'm with Rich(BDL) and EspressoForge, still sounds like underextraction is the main culprit. Or, more specifically an uneven extraction. Any chance you're getting channeling of some sort? Even a long shot, in terms of length of time, can be underextracted.