Dark Roast Recommendation

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
Ziv Sade
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#1: Post by Ziv Sade »

hi all,

lately - i am experimenting with darker roast profile for sweet - heavy body espresso. i am roasting to final degree of BT=235C which is around 30 seconds into 2nd crack.

i wonder if someone here roasting to the same roast level, and also following Raw recommendation of decrease RoR and 25%/75% ratio.
let me further provide you with an example -

let's say that i plan my drying phase (up tp 150C) to be with an average RoR=15C/m and my TP=105C and TP @ 1:50 - meaning i will end the dry phase @ 4:50m.

then the ramp tp 1C will be with an average RoR=13 and it will take me another 3:46m and will occur @ 8:36m.

then - if i want to keep the 25%/75% ratio, then the remaining roast time should be - 2:52m on which the temp should go up from ~ 200C to 235C - meaning a RoR=12.56.

as you see - this is a very high RoR throughout the roast -
Dry RoR = 15
Ramp RoR = 13
Develop RoR =12.56

any ideas anyone?

any other recommendation?

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endlesscycles
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#2: Post by endlesscycles »

You don't need to go to a high degree to get thick sweet chocolate flavors. 410F/210C can actually taste incredibly "dark". Sticking with the 25% "Rule" you could just go lower power and a 14-16min roast. Get to 200F/100C in 2min or so, then roll the power slowly down and never back up. Don't worry about the first two stage splits, but I do find the 25% final to be valid.
-Marshall Hance
Asheville, NC

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[creative nickname]
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#3: Post by [creative nickname] »

+1. Going low and slow to full city will give you tons of chocolates and body. Get anywhere close to Vienna and ashiness is going to mask those qualities.

I find it hard to translate thermocouple output across roasters, but to me the best roasts for comfort espresso finish about 40F hotter than the onset of first cracks, which will be shortly before the onset of second.
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#4: Post by EspressoForge »

I'll also say that I prefer very slow RoR after FC. If you like darker, keep the same slow RoR and just roast longer...roasting too fast at this stage I've always found gives me divots and higher amounts of burnt flavors, rather than the intended sweetness and chocolateyness. Also, selecting a good bean for this style may be the key.

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boar_d_laze
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#5: Post by boar_d_laze »

Old Korowai saying:
Oy. Kids today.

We send you to school, buy you books, and all you do is eat the teachers.
The arithmetically obvious solution to your problem, is to start with a lower Charge temperature, and take Drying and Ramp slower. That will allow you to keep both measured, Development RoR and Development time within the 25% limit.

Scott Rao's "Commandments of roasting" aren't hard and fast rules, they're tongue-in-cheek observations about one person's favorite roast profiles -- which don't go as dark as you want to. Deeper, darker Development will and should take more time than brighter/lighter; if you're going to hold on to the ratios, season them with senses of humor and practicality.

If you want to experiment with dark, Italian-style-but-Rao roasts, you should. Don't let anyone tell you different.

Rich
Drop a nickel in the pot Joe. Takin' it slow. Waiter, waiter, percolator

Ziv Sade (original poster)
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#6: Post by Ziv Sade (original poster) »

Thank you all for your replies.

As I see it, you all recommended a longer roasting profile in which all the roast phases are getting longer and that is why a roaster will also be able to length the development phase and still be able to follow Raw ratio of 25%/75%.

The issue is that I saw a few older post by another_jim that talks about going fast through dry and ramp phases when going dark in order to keep the moisture in the been and also keep the sugars for the carmelization process and not to loose them during the Millard process. Mabey - based on that theory - Raw recommendations just don't make it?

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boar_d_laze
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#7: Post by boar_d_laze »

"Rao," not "raw."

Scott Rao's Commandment regarding ratio of Development time to non-development time is between 20% and 25%, not a hard and fast 25%; although going as deep into second crack, I think (as opposed to what The Coffee Roaster's Companion, actually said) that you should be at 25% at least, and a bisseleh more wouldn't hurt.

The idea of setting the minimum ratio at 20% and capping it at 25% is to avoid "underdevelopment," and "baking" (flattened acidy notes). No underdevelopment, no baking, no problem. But the FC+ roasts you want are inherently baked. You like that? Then, also no problem.

You can't serve two masters. You'll have to choose between another jim and Scott Rao (and heaven knows whom else). Or don't choose. There is no one right way to roast. Every roastmaster develops his own style(s) for the particular bean and for the particular roaster. Hopefully you can save some time by learning from others, but it's really up to you. If you wanted "set it and forget it" certainty, you should have bought a different roaster.

My impression, based only on reading what other people have written, is that a Huky does pretty well following the Rao Commandments with roasts finished in the C+/FC range. FC+? Ver vaist?

I strongly suggest experimenting with all sorts of profile styles; and also suggest reading The Coffee Roaster's Companion instead of trying to absorb its lessons from other sources.

Finally, If there's one thing more important than any other thing in roasting, it's not a recipe, a set of Commandments :lol: for a generic profile, nor any sort of roasting theory. It's cupping.

Rich
Drop a nickel in the pot Joe. Takin' it slow. Waiter, waiter, percolator

SJM
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#8: Post by SJM »

boar_d_laze wrote: Finally, If there's one thing more important than any other thing in roasting, it's not a recipe, a generic profile, or any sort of roasting theory. It's cupping.

Rich
Or at least sampling/tasting/evaluating.
Cupping is a bit over the top for a lot of us :-)))

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boar_d_laze
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#9: Post by boar_d_laze »

SJM wrote:Or at least sampling/tasting/evaluating. Cupping is a bit over the top for a lot of us.
Susan,

Good point and true.

Commerical roasters mostly sample roast for cupping to test for defects and/or see if the bean is worth buying. Most (?) of us buy on the basis of descriptions on a website, or recommendations from friends who also roast, and have already committed to at least a few weeks worth before our first roasts. I know I seldom buy less than ten pounds, and never less than five.

The utility of cupping for people like us -- assuming a roaster which can do a 100g or smaller sample -- is that it reveals so much about the beans individual characteristics, giving some insight into what profile will work best. For instance, if I'd cupped the bean used for the September R&L, instead of proceeding with my generic profile, I would have known that the bean had very little going on in terms of acidish goodness, and would have roasted it faster and lighter to preserve what little there was. Thereby saving a few hundred grams of beans... which I would have given away anyway.

Honestly, I taste/evaluate a C+/FC finish more often than I cup a not-quite C. Did I mention you made a good point?

Rich
Drop a nickel in the pot Joe. Takin' it slow. Waiter, waiter, percolator

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[creative nickname]
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#10: Post by [creative nickname] »

Ziv Sade wrote:Thank you all for your replies.

As I see it, you all recommended a longer roasting profile in which all the roast phases are getting longer and that is why a roaster will also be able to length the development phase and still be able to follow Raw ratio of 25%/75%.

The issue is that I saw a few older post by another_jim that talks about going fast through dry and ramp phases when going dark in order to keep the moisture in the been and also keep the sugars for the carmelization process and not to loose them during the Millard process. Mabey - based on that theory - Raw recommendations just don't make it?
It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish with your approach to roasting a particular bean. If you want to maximize chocolate tones and depth of body, and low-and-slow is generally the approach I like for that result. If you are trying to maximize acidity and sweetness while still finishing at Full City or darker, Jim Schulman's approach is right on the money. And of course, you could try for a "middle of the road" roast which balances between those extremes.
boar_d_laze wrote:Finally, If there's one thing more important than any other thing in roasting, it's not a recipe, a set of Commandments for a generic profile, nor any sort of roasting theory. It's cupping.


This is the most important piece of advice you have received in this thread. Try lots of approaches to roasting, keep careful logs of what you did each time, and closely taste the results. Over time this will teach you much more than any amount of roasting theory that you hear second hand.
boar_d_laze wrote:The utility of cupping for people like us -- assuming a roaster which can do a 100g or smaller sample -- is that it reveals so much about the beans individual characteristics, giving some insight into what profile will work best. For instance, if I'd cupped the bean used for the September R&L, instead of proceeding with my generic profile, I would have known that the bean had very little going on in terms of acidish goodness, and would have roasted it faster and lighter to preserve what little there was. Thereby saving a few hundred grams of beans... which I would have given away anyway.

Honestly, I taste/evaluate a C+/FC finish more often than I cup a not-quite C. Did I mention you made a good point?
I think it is worth distinguishing "cupping roasts" from cupping as a tasting procedure here. Cupping roasts are useful for evaluating a green coffee, but aren't necessarily tuned to express the best taste that you can get out of a bean.

The cupping as a tasting procedure is a great way to try lots of coffees side by side with minimal equipment and fuss. It is also comparatively easy to do blinded comparisons using this method, even if you are running the whole thing solo. But again, it isn't necessarily the best guide to how a coffee will taste using a particular method. If your goal is to measure how well a roast succeeded in isolation, it is usually better to just brew it the way you ordinarily like best and take careful notes of the results.
LMWDP #435

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