I'm at 1.2 - same as you

Hmm, at 1.2 bar, I'd expect that you'd see HX brew water closer to boiler temp when starting from idle. (Mine was idle for an hour or so before I took the video.) Any chance you have an temp offset configured in your PID?

Nope no offset. It idles that low because the grouphead is exposed (yours is too though).

When the HX water runs it does come to temp pretty quick as you can see in that video.

It's also under 70F here so that could be another reason

Wow. All of a sudden a few people have my same machine that's been sitting in garage now I'm restoring, these new threads have been a help. I feel lucky, mine was in bit better shape and a find I chanced on. Did all the cleanup and I'll put my complete project pictures up once finished, bit tight on time now.

HX internal boiler question. I left mine attached and descaled just like you did. I kept it attached to main boiler. The 2 bolts seemed pretty in there and did not want to risk stripping it or leak when back together. Everything else was pulled apart, soaked, reheat citric acid, soak again, repeat, for about a week. I put it back together. Now wondering if I should have took a hose to the HX with the 2 bolts sticking out and put some pressure by blowing into tube in there, I just let the acid drip out. It's a pain while together in frame to get at it as boiler has to be apart. I attached a tube to one side and silly as it sounds used a turkey baster type tube to squirt some concentrated acid in there until full, left it in the machine assembled, let it sit, will blow out and repeat a few times. Gunk in there is hard to get out, there's only those 2 holes, worried the acid may break scale loose and don't want it sent through the group later.

My main question is, how much volume of water can fit inside that HX cylinder inside boiler? Seems like it doesn't hold much, which means it's pretty thick walled which I wasn't expecting. The machine flowed, no leaks, before I took apart, and want to make sure I don't send loosened scale through it on first post-cleanup startup. Is it by design just a bit of water that heats up in a shorter tube length which runs through HX, maybe the length of the HX tube is calculated just long enough to transfer proper heat, then on it goes? Tube being close to double shot size or something? I thought the HX cylinder would have more capacity. It looks from outside pretty big and capable of holding more than a few shots on it's own stored inside. But manually bypassing and flowing water through those 2 holes, one inlet and one outlet to group head, it seems a very small capacity.

Maybe I'm overthinking this? Anyone know what volume HX should hold? The walls of HX may just be much thicker than I think. Hard to see how good job of descale I did inside. It doesn't store water so much as just contain a sort length of tube for heat transfer while water flows through it, heating water in "real time" as you flip the red brew switch. Am I right in my thinking here?

If it's overly gunked up, then it will also not do a good job of exchanging heat. Inside the HX cylinder had a lot of scale, as did heating element, so that was probably part of a cooler water temp prior to my restore start. Good news was it all worked, no leaks, pstat and all clunked in proper order, except that pump motor never wanting to turn off, which is a wiring/maybe Gicar issue I need to track back as thoughtfully detailed by an engineers response in the other Astoria Argenta/Laurentis thread on here recently. Thanks everyone.

godlyone wrote:Nope no offset. It idles that low because the grouphead is exposed (yours is too though).

When the HX water runs it does come to temp pretty quick as you can see in that video.

It's also under 70F here so that could be another reason

I'd expect our machines to have virtually the same behavior. At 1.2 bar, the boiler water should be at roughly 257 (according to HX Love), and the water in the HX should be the same temp after a 30 minute idle. In my flush, the group TC temp peaks at 226 and then drops fairly steadily to 200. I did find a graph generated by one of Eric's tests (albeit for an E61 machine) that illustrates flush temps here. (Thanks Eric) It shows a temperature path that appears similar to what I'm seeing, but mine has a more gradual sloped curve from peak temperature down to cooled group, probably due (in part) to the large 8oz or so HX on these machines. So, I think I'm seeing temperatures that are consistent with Eric's graph. I'm at a loss to understand the temps you're seeing. I don't imagine there's any restriction in your HX-to-group line, because I know you descaled everything. Is the PID setup for the wrong TC type? Boiler pressure gauge reading high? Other than that, I don't know why our two machine would behave so differently.

The Hx water is quite a bit different than the boiler water.

Assuming a boiler were held at a relatively constant pressure, e.g. PID controlled, the water temp at and near the surface would follow well established values. But this is NOT the case in normal espresso machine boilers because the pressure is following the pstat's rules and the temperature would be related to what could be termed the mean effective pressure. And then there's altitude, barometric pressure and gage accuracy to consider.

In addition to all of this (plus what I may be forgetting), there is always the question of thermocouple insertion depth, whether everybody's thermocouple and meter have "tied the knot", and whether the thermocouple and meter have been reasonably calibrated as a "system".

The tip of the thermocouple "should be" located at what I term the thermal center of gravity of the grouphead. But, in reality, it matters only that your insertion depths are close; perhaps very close. I have gobs of experience with temperature measuring gizmos in other mechanical equipment and it would positively dazzle you (it did me) to witness the difference a 1/4" makes.

These machines (I have never seen one) probably should be set to have a max boiler pressure of around 0.90 bar.

Ross Leidy wrote:I'd expect our machines to have virtually the same behavior. At 1.2 bar, the boiler water should be at roughly 257 (according to HX Love), and the water in the HX should be the same temp after a 30 minute idle.

Since I have been running one of these with a PID on the steam boiler and a t/c in the group for almost 4 years, I'll chime in on this. I dont think you can assume that the two machine's pressure gauges behave identically.

My boiler temp is currently set at 243 F (.8 bars on my gauge). The group head idles at 189-ish F and will flush up to 210F. I usually flush up to 199, load the PF and start. It usually jumps to about 208 and slowly creeps down to about 204 F. By taste, I think this is keeping a somewhat consistent temp at the screen and I believe the temp to be around 202 (based on temperature of my GB/5 and how the coffees cup on each).

I have had my boiler as low as 230F (which was about .6 bars on my gauge) which doesn't quite dry the steam out enough for good microfoam and really runs a bit too cool. Much higher than my current setting at it runs a bit hot at the group. In the summer, I drop it down to about 240 F.

My experience is certainly going to vary from yours but I suspect the variances should help find Laurentis espresso nirvana faster.



C.

Hi -- great post

I have this exact same gizmo... and have had the pleasure of using this machine for 6 years - no problems

Recently the 'controller' (buttons for doses) has gone berzerk, wherein the 'button lights' flash in what seems to be random loop, fast in... - a circle like some sort of state fair side show sign...-- and pushing any of the 4 buttons will not dispense - machine just 'clicks on and off' very fast

I have turned off machine back on....

Tried to 'program' any given button - same problems

Any ideas on what is causing this?

..............................................

I have machine mostly apart now...

In reading this thread... where is this 'flowmeter' ??? i am thinking maybe this is part of the problem?

also in reading this - i saw a digital temp addon doodad that was referred to as a PID - i watched the video - very nifty -- what sort of a part is this exactly -- where can i get one, and where/how is this to be installed exactly?

Huge thanks

also if the consensus is that this 'controller' (button module) is kaput - is there any person this can be sent to for refurbishment? replacement module is 444.00 smakers --

This is for personal use in my flowershop - serves me, my employees and our clients...

It was initially a gift from one of our clients - has had naturally soft water in it all of its life - was used in a 'corporate lunchroom' prior to being the the lifes blood of our team!



Iggy

Hey Iggy!

I also have this same machine, but have had it in storage for since 2002. I've decided to see if it's running OK & perhaps move it to my kitchen island. I've been using a Capresso C1000 Super Automatic for occasional espresso drinks, but it is a huge compromise. I drink way more brewed coffee, but want to rekindle my taste/love for GOOD espresso.

If I discover problems with my Laurentis, I need to know (as you requested) info on parts repairs, as most of the parts are cost-prohibitive. Who would pay $444 for a control pad when you can buy a pretty nice NEW semi-commercial home machine for 4-5 times that much?

So I'm hoping I don't have major problems. Any suggestions about the particulars of using this machine?

coffeelady wrote:hi
I just bought a used sme 2n.... wondered if you ever found that manual - my machine looks brand new - was taken out of a shop where it was working - wondered if it needed a pump or ? it looks good under the hood... was stored properly - but these machines aren't common - would love your advice or help on this?
tracy@kyotocoffee.ca
or anyone else out there that has some advice?

Take a look at this post. The manuals are for Astoria, but the Laurentis is the same under the hood.