I watched this video:

http://blog.brownbean.com/2010/07/taste ... ler-water/

Does anybody else buy into what they suggest?

I am suspect.

Thanks for the input.

The first shot can be worst than second because of coffee oils going stale (if not cleaned). It is not the water. Maybe they should have made more than one shot.

Cheers

First shot in the morning for me is always a bit dodgy. My wife gets that in her snowball cap and I get the next in a nice espresso cup or as a macchiato with a touch of milk. Chivalry is not dead!

Cheers

Ian

This is a famous claim that I call bogus. I still don't understand what "stale" means in this context. If it's very hard water (which is not recommended) then I guess it could evaporate and get harder. Are they worried about bacteria? Elves?

Anyway, what totally killed me is the very end of the video when they mention that "Oh!" maybe we should try to change the temp on the machine at some point (???!!!). I had assumed that like most of us, "dialing in" meant finding the right temp to match the roast to give the best results - I guess that they don't include this in their routine. Sour means either crappy beans (I've never liked Lavazza) or low temp. What I suspect is that the group wasn't fully up to temp with the first pull. I usually do a flush first thing in the AM just to make sure it is up to temp before the first shot. The second shot was after flushing a bunch of hot water through the group and trying again.

Anyway, one of the top reasons to get a machine like the Viv is rock solid temp control. If it's not employed its not taking advantage of one of the primary benefits of the machine.

clumeng wrote: I still don't understand what "stale" means in this context. If it's very hard water (which is not recommended) then I guess it could evaporate and get harder. Are they worried about bacteria? Elves?

The "stale" water notion comes from the common observation that aerated water (water with some air dissolved in it) tastes better than deaerated water. This is why there is an aerator on the tip of most water faucets you might find in your house. Water gets deaerated when it's heated, so you'll find lots of old advice around to brew coffee and tea with "freshly" boiled water, as opposed to water that's been held at temperature for a while.

Water that's been poured into a tank in an espresso machine and left exposed to air is more aerated than water that's been piped into a boiler, hence the concern.

Does it make any actual difference in the espresso cup? I'd guess it would be pretty far down the list of factors that affect the taste.

earlgrey_44 wrote:observation that aerated water (water with some air dissolved in it) tastes better than deaerated water. This is why there is an aerator on the tip of most water faucets you might find in your house.

Not true. Aerators are installed to conserve water.

A faucet aerator is often found at the tip of model indoor water faucet. Without an aerator, water usually flows out of a faucet as one big stream. An aerator spreads this stream into many little droplets. This helps save water and reduce splashing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faucet_aerator

tekomino wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faucet_aerator

The wikipedia no doubt knows everything.

Presumably, one might also think that an aerator serves to aerate.

Presumably, one might also think that an aerator serves to aerate.

Well, DOH! But this has nothing to do with taste but with saving water. There is no difference in water taste in the glass between aerated and non-aerated water. Now if you drink directly out of facet there is perceived difference due to water being separated into tiny droplets...

tekomino wrote:Well, DOH! But this has nothing to do with taste but with saving water. There is no difference in water taste in the glass between aerated and non-aerated water.

So, you know these things? Really? Excellent.

Two things that are easier to find than an authoritative history of an odd piece of plumbing, are references to the alleged importance of using "fresh" water for tea and coffee because it is supposed to taste better, and, references to the taste improvement in water brought about by aeration.

Survey various sources of brewing and steeping advice and Google "aeration water taste" and you'll be bombarded with them.

The stale water thing has come up on the board before, usually in the context of stuff that leaches into the water when in the boiler or some such. Dan proposed a taste test, and there were a few comments, nothing too dramatic.

I always suspected that these general beliefs and assertions about aeration were behind peoples concerns about stale water, but it might just be a generalized concern about anything consumable that has sat in one place for awhile - dunno.

I return to my earlier comment that for espresso, "staleness" is pretty much a non-issue.

Finally, because the wikipedia, which seems to think that an aerator is actually a flow restrictor, knows everything and is always right, look up aeration on it. It mentions taste improvement in the first few sentences.

I actually think both of you are correct. Aerators help with taste and they help with flow and convserving water. They also help with avoiding splattering when the water hits the bottom of the sink. Not sure why the slap fest about who is right...who cares?

The stale water issue has been discussed a few time and seems to have no definitive answer. I think the small brew boiler on the Vivaldi (and Alex Duetto and others) is a benefit in this regard, if there is even a real issue to begin with. I think the 1st shot versus 2nd shot phenomenon is better explained by other causes. Coffee oils, temp issues, etc.