The guilty pleasure of troll voyeurism - Page 2

Want to talk espresso but not sure which forum? If so, this is the right one.
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shadowfax
Posts: 3545
Joined: 19 years ago

#11: Post by shadowfax »

Roeland, I agree with you in many cases, but not all. In high-end espresso, there are facts, generally accepted opinions, and opinions. The good work done on this forum has been individuals stepping up and formulating experiments to test hypotheses. Certainly, qualifying your opinions with "IMO" is tiresome, redundant, and perhaps wasteful, but on the other hand, the big problem is putting one's weak assumptions/opinions under the guise of "well known facts" would seem to be the problem--people answering a question with opinions and misinformation disguised as factual information, e.g., "it's well known that a uniform distribution of particles is necessary for espresso extraction, and this is why whirly-blade grinders are awful." There's some expectation that one should do some research before acting like they have. If you haven't, at least don't say or suggest that you have, right?
Nicholas Lundgaard

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Bluecold
Posts: 1774
Joined: 16 years ago

#12: Post by Bluecold »

Posts full of misinformation don't get better by saying "in my opinion". The fact that some posters post wrong information is beside my point.
"it's well known that a uniform distribution of particles is necessary for espresso extraction, and this is why whirly-blade grinders are awful in my opinion"
See? the post didn't get any better.
LMWDP #232
"Though I Fly Through the Valley of Death I Shall Fear No Evil For I am at 80,000 Feet and Climbing."

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timo888
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Joined: 18 years ago

#13: Post by timo888 »

Men and women of good will with no axes to grind and who offer their honest opinions, have no problem recognizing each other as such even on impersonal forums on the internet where you don't get to meet each other eye to eye.

I have an infinitely adjustable grinder that sold for $300+ new a few years ago (Jim called it "a sweet grinder" IIRC) and it does a very good job in a domestic setting. It's main PITA is that three or four beans get stuck in the hopper, and some grinds do collect in the chute to the doser. But the quality of the grind and the grinder's adjustability are not wanting. So I have no trouble believing that Jim is getting very good results from a grinder that costs $425+ in 2009.

zin1953
Posts: 2523
Joined: 18 years ago

#14: Post by zin1953 »

The point I was trying to make about saying, "In my opinion" is to get away from sounding as if one is speaking factually. I have seen/read people making blanket statements and they may indeed seem at first read reasonable . . . until someone who has that machine, grinder, or _________ (insert item here) steps into the conversation to basically say, "What the heck are you talking about?!?!?"

Since I do not have that _________, and (as I said) at first read, it certainly seemed reasonable, it's not until the second post that I realize that the first individual didn't know what they were saying and was, instead, stating an opinion -- one, as it turned out, entirely devoid of experiential or factual basis.

In other words, I attempt to make clear the difference in my posts. And that's good enough for me.

Cheers,
Jason
A morning without coffee is sleep. -- Anon.

Dogshot
Posts: 481
Joined: 19 years ago

#15: Post by Dogshot »

My theory on the 2 primary motivations working behind why people post to internet forums:

1) information sharing (the good reason)

2) self-esteem building (the bad reason)

Some people have a genuine desire to share information. Luckily, here on HB, there are many who are motivated to post through this desire.

Self-esteem can be increased by making a downward comparison. That is, a comparison against someone who is worse-off than you can bring it back up. The research on self-esteem shows that people, especially when their self-esteem has taken a hit, seek to redeem their self-esteem by developing a downward comparison.

I believe that people intentionally misunderstand others' points, or intentionally take a portion of others' posts to then construct a flawed argument from the other, and then proceed to demonstrate how the other poster is 'inferior' in some way. This constructed downward comparison comes across as snippy, or argumentative, but serves its purpose: to increase the self-esteem of the (snippy, argumentative) person. Plus, it's easy, free, can be done anytime, and can be done anonymously if desired.

On-line communities lack the geographic proximity of many other types of social groups. So, I think that most of the perceived benefits are psychological, rather than social. For example, alpha-males get to mate with more females in their social group. This benefit does not exist in on-line forums, and would provide less reward for achieving such status.

Mark
LMWDP #106

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Psyd
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#16: Post by Psyd »

I think that some self examination is necessary. If your self-esteem is somehow tied up with how your posts on an internet forum are accepted, you have far larger issues than HB, CG, or The Amateur Psychologist Blog Forum are going to be able to tackle.
If you can't generate an apology, or accept that maybe your opinion is, perhaps, not the last word on a subject, or have difficulty with the concept that different folks may think differently than you, maybe it's time you start responding to the e-mails that you get telling you that they can increase your, uhm, endowment.

Oh, yeah.... lest someone take me too awful seriously... :wink:
Espresso Sniper
One Shot, One Kill

LMWDP #175

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ddr
Posts: 155
Joined: 15 years ago

#17: Post by ddr »

HB wrote:At first I planned to ignore the controversy, but found myself closely following the discussion's development.
Me too. I read the first post accusing Jim and I of being bought off and I really wish I stopped there. After all, it was just one troll "thinking" out loud. I had stopped reading CG months ago because of another troll, unfortunately I read a few more posts and saw that the second one had joined in. I have spent more time following those posts than I would prefer to admit. This has truly been a waste of all of our time, but other than ignoring them there is not much to be done. I suppose Mark has probably booted the first one, although the second has been starting more problems over there.

Anyway, to those who stood up and defended our comparison thanks. Hopefully the future will be quieter.
Dan
LMWDP #242

Rod Carmer
Posts: 10
Joined: 15 years ago

#18: Post by Rod Carmer »

Bashing products is much different than bashing people. We should always maintain a certain level of ethics when discussing products. Personal or Professional opinions about products should be cautious.

Bashing or suggesting dubious behavior about people should not be tolerated on any bulletin board. A direct PM should be sent and hashed out one on one. I have great respect for Mr. Schulman as he has called me on a couple of things but I still respect his views.

I hope everyone understands that I am here to help educate not just evaluate. I have seen tens of thousands of dollars wasted on products that simply do not work to their advertised capacities.

Note to all: learn as much as you can about the product you want. Use the golden rule and get a minimum three quotes and not simply look at the dollar amount but the product and its offerings.
Rod Carmer
Cirqua Customized Water

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