Apogee wrote:I am asking asking you all to just consider if we are ready for espresso fundamentals that we can agree or vote on?

My learning went just fine; but please question my learning methods versus yours, genetic versus environmental limitations of my upbringing and astrological sign impacts if that makes avoiding my request for actual espresso progress more palatable.

Strawberry, cacao nibs with honey on the finish; clean and transparent. (20g, 1:2.5 BR, 22.86 EY, 8.84 TDS)

At the risk of re-derailing this thread (and because I started this before the above, on-target posts came in )...

Tom, I don't have a refractometer. Your approach seems to require that. Do you think that is an ESSENTIAL piece of equipment? Certainly, it may be an important piece of equipment, but I daresay we have not yet shown it to be essential. Who knows, it may become that. But I still feel that I make excellent espresso, even without one, using the fundamentals I have learned almost exclusively on this forum!

I am not averse to spending money on coffee equipment. But spending money on equipment is a personal evolution (when I ordered my baratza vario grinder several years ago, I felt like I was spending a FORTUNE). I don't spend money needlessly; I spend money on coffee equipment to solve problems in my current setup. In the last year, Ive upgraded my roaster (North 500 gm), my grinder (EG-1 on order), and gotten a new lever machine (CT-1). If I felt like a refractometer was essential, I'd certainly buy one.

It seems to me that your (not explicitly stated) position is that "use of refractometers can shorten the learning curve for making espresso". Or at least, that after trying to glean info from this website for 6 years, you gained much quicker success by using a refractometer. Some truth, perhaps. Lots of truth, perhaps. But, if by the stodgy old guard you refer to those who have learned to make espresso without a refractometer, and have not felt the need to purchase one, there will likely be many on this forum.

If you want to change the forum for the better, please help the science by growing it. Show me why a refractometer helps me make better espresso. And please, learn to identify your irritations specifically, and express them clearly without animosity. Asking for "actual espresso progress" is much murkier, and therefore much more difficult to discuss clearly, than "everyone should use a refractometer to reasonably discuss espresso quality"

If I've misinterpreted your implied position, I apologize. I could say much more, but have probably said too much already. Cheers to all who make this forum so great!!!

Apogee wrote:The answer you all are looking for is no.

We do not believe in definable fundamentals. HB old guard will continue to simply say work on your mechanics, provide a couple out of date and incomplete recommendations and let beginners ask the same questions over and over.

The people you all train are Under extracting to avoid the unidentifiable flaws in their technique. Please continue rubbing sticks together. I definitely see a spark.

Absolutely received my answer to this thread.

There is a level of contempt that you express here which makes me uncomfortable even just as a bystander to this discussion. Apogee you should take some time to consider how you could more respectfully interact in HB.

I concur sir. For my tone I apologize. My contempt is no better or worse than the 8 pages I just received. I believe I absorbed it quite well frankly.

Apogee wrote:We do not believe in definable fundamentals.

Yes, I do. But I also believe it's necessary to make an effort to prove them if you want others to adopt them (e.g., blind taste test). And in the case of beginners, I give additional consideration to minimizing cost and simplifying their routine. There's no point in the painstaking layout out a protocol if it requires equipment that few can afford and regimentation even fewer are willing to follow.

Apogee wrote:Absolutely received my answer to this thread.

You evidently have affirmed your assumptions, but not because of what others have said.

Apogee wrote:My contempt is no better or worse than the 8 pages I just received.

Really? I didn't see anything that approached contempt ("the feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless, or deserving scorn."). Skepticism and disagreement, yes. Contempt? No.

If you're serious, please use the "Report a post" button for the offending posts and a moderator will review it. In the meantime, to slow the back-and-forth, this thread is locked for awhile.

And now for something completely different, a return to the original post that started this thread!

Apogee wrote:Dennis was chased off this board for being modern.

I believe this assertion has been debunked, but let's move forward, shall we?

hankua wrote:Denis's company KafaTek could participate as a vendor or sponsor?

Fausto wrote:Basically I propose a clean slate for Denis - it's been a long time, it's time for a second chance. Let him post if he wants to (w/o moderator approval), or not if he doesn't. Let him (hopefully) choose to follow the rules on vendor participation - perhaps he will accept the loving embrace that I'm sure many HBers would love to give him and he'll become a sponsor and we can talk about his grinders with him in the Marketplace.

That's fine with me, with the clear understanding that he scrupulously follows the rules for vendor participation in the forums.

It's a lot easier said than done. Some HB sponsors simply avoid posting because they don't want to risk the accusation. Or, quite honestly, they know that they're hotheads who are easily provoked into an argument (*ahem* I'm thinking of some long-time sponsors in the NY/NJ area ). Other HB sponsors are naturally self-effacing and never run into issues, e.g., Stefano Cremonesi of espressocare.com participates regularly and has never raised an eyebrow.

UPDATE: He's agreed to this understanding and created a new account: kafatek. Welcome back!