HB wrote:We have a "weaner"... congratulations, Scott, you're the HB 2008 MVP. I'll contact you offline about starting the development of the blend sponsored by Paradise Roasters.

Scott...way to go!
RJ

HB wrote:FYI, it isn't displayed to anyone having a MVP of less than 2 or to guests for the very reasons you mention. The score itself is based on long-term contributions. Without giving too many hints about the basis of the score, it would take a participant many weeks to move up even one point. If they're engaging in MPP behavior, it would be embarrassingly evident to anyone else. There is no popularity contributor to the score (so-called karma points). But if the MVP score turns into an egofest, it's gone.

I personally think the whole MVP score is flawed myself. I've elected to hide mine, because I think it's embarrassing, counter productive and unfair to other members of this forum.

I didn't even notice it until a few weeks ago. Then I checked and sure enough, I had one. I think my score was 8 or 9 or something and I displayed it for a while. Then I posted about my poor experience dealing with Richard Penney and my MVP score suddenly dropped to like 5 or 6 overnight. Wow, really? That made me feel like deleting all my posts and finding another forum frankly.

That also caused me to start thinking about the merits of such a system to begin with.

The conclusion I came to is this (and of course, this is just my opinion): a score which suggests that some member(s) are somehow better or more valued than other members here is simply a flawed idea - and in the long run can only end up being a detriment to the overall community to which we belong. It's too much like telling one of your kids that you love them more than your other children. Clearly, no good parent would ever do such a thing.

I personally value every member - even if maybe they don't post or have only posted a few times. There have been cases when someone with only 5 or 10 posts has asked a question and that question has resulted in me making a video or double checking how I pull shots, etc. - with the result being a big improvement in my methods. To me, that person is very valued - but will his/her MVP score ever reflect that? Probably not. They will probably be a member of HB for years with a score of 2 or 3. What message does that send them? You're not worth much around here?

I just don't get it. So I'm keeping my score hidden from now on. I don't want to be part of making other people feel more or less valuable around here and I think Dan should rethink his whole idea.

The MVP score makes me think of two situations in my life (examples to the contrary actually). Cases when people have properly recognized that either they were not better than anyone else in life or that highlighting someone as "extra super special" only serves to make everyone else in the room feel less special.

First case:

For a while, I looked into becoming a reserve police officer in our town. As a result, I got to be buddies with a lot of the local cops. One of my good friends (also a police officer / detective), Dave, sort of took me under his wing and showed me the ropes, etc. One day we were hanging out in the lobby of the police station and I noticed they had a huge wall with a bunch of "baseball cards" with all the local cops pictures, names and stats on them.

Naturally, I scanned the wall to see where Dave's card was. But then I noticed Dave didn't have a card on the wall. So I looked over at him and said, "You don't have a police officer trading card up here?" He said, "No". I asked, "Why not? You are one of the most popular and best liked officers in our entire town".

His explanation stuck with me and made a lot of sense and I have long respected it - he said, "Police aren't supposed to be celebrities; we are just part of the community and here to serve. I'm against it, because having a trading card with your photo on it only serves to glamorize the police department and sends a subtle message to the community we serve that cops are somehow more important, or more valued, or more special than the average citizen. I want no part of that..."

Quite right and quite noble if you ask me. Police are no better than the people they serve.

Second case:

In a speech by the late, great country music singer, Johnny Cash, he was honoring someone at a ceremony or something. I don't recall the exact details, but maybe it can be located on YouTube. I just remember he stood up on stage to introduce the person - or to say a few kind words about him - and part of the introduction went like this:

"It would be unfair to my other friends to call this person my 'best friend', but I will say that I have no friends better..."

In one sentence, he honored not only everyone he knew in the room, but also the person he was commending at the event.

Now that's class.

In my opinion, the MVP score sends the wrong message here. There might be some coffee beans that are better than other coffee beans; or there might be espresso machines that are more valuable than other espresso machines - but for me, I simply don't agree that there are home-barista members here that are more or less valuable than others.

Even for members I don't agree with or don't get on well with around here, I still value them here as equals.

My vote is abolish the MVP stuff and stop sending the message to members that some people here are worth more than others.

Ray

Ray, very good post and I agree with some points but on principle I disagree with premise. I agree, we are all valuable, I agree we all have same potential, but what we do is not equally valuable. One needs to recognize that distinction. So no member is as person more valuable than the other, but the work each of us does is. Everyone is more or less equally capable but what differs is what we put out. I like this quote:

Tony Dungy wrote:The truth is that most people have a better chance to be uncommon by effort than by natural gifts. Anyone could give that effort in his or her chosen endeavor, but the typical person doesn't, choosing to do only enough to get by.

I believe that reasoning behind the MVP score is attempt to recognize work/contribution members do on forum. And that work might be more or less valuable. Whether that distinction can be coded into the computer based algorithm is different story.

3rd post of the topic:

Marshall wrote:In my experience popularity contests of any kind tick off 10 people for every 1 they make happy.

RayJohns wrote:I personally think the whole MVP score is flawed myself. I've elected to hide mine, because I think it's embarrassing, counter productive and unfair to other members of this forum.

+1

tekomino wrote:Ray, very good post and I agree with some points but on principle I disagree with premise. I agree, we are all valuable, I agree we all have same potential, but what we do is not equally valuable. One needs to recognize that distinction. So no member is as person more valuable than the other, but the work each of us does is. Everyone is more or less equally capable but what differs is what we put out.

I believe that reasoning behind the MVP score is attempt to recognize work/contribution members do on forum. And that work might be more or less valuable. Whether that distinction can be coded into the computer based algorithm is different story.

Yeah, easy for YOU to say, LOOK at YOUR score!!!

Seriously, you and Ray have made cogent points.
I LOVE the Dungy quote, as i see the lack of effort in myself and my kids. Gonna change that.
I also believe (not speaking for Dan) is that perhaps the MVP card might be a little kick in the butt to dig a little deeper in their questions, answers, think out of the box, etc. Sort of reinforcing the Dungy theorem.

I believe Ray found the solution, which is (like his friend Dave)...don't display your MVP rating.

for Me, just being in a place with so many here who know so much, but don't make me feel like a moron is reward enough.
And on the rare opportunities when I can return the favor, I do, with relish!

BTW, Ray, I feel you expressed your thought in a most respectful manner.

In my personal opinion and based on many years contributions to varied forums - these sort of systems add no value what so ever, and in fact usually have a negative impact. There are many metrics used but but all appear to end up at the same point. They generate elitism, negative competitive behaviour and jealousy.

They become a centre of attention and debate in themselves and people are forever complaining about having less points than some other contributer who is not nearly as constructive and valuable, or pointing out that Joe Bloggs is an opinionated windbag but has heaps of points, or the guy from Fred's cafe that sponsors the site has lots of points thus generating conspiracy theories about the delegation of points.

Luckily there's an easy solution for me, I just ignore all such systems and carry on as if they don't exist!

The important thing is the content, there is no better forum for coffee related discussion, the design is also clean and simple, and it's one of my top 5 sites for all my interests.

Rick,
I agree on your point regarding those who post excessively just to pontificate, or just because.
I occasionally lurk on a music oriented web site that has (IMO) far too many of these folks, which really clutters the landscape and often ends up being a war about semantics, or whose gear is better. (reminds me a bit of another coffee web site I happen to moderate ) Lots of great members there, though.
Unfortunately, the music web site, someone who makes a valid statement then backs off just because a responder has 10k posts.

Back on topic, HB has ALWAYS been far less about who we are, and more about what we love...espresso/coffee, how things work, etc.
Personally, other than perhaps the VERY rare exception, I've never felt those with more "MVP" than me bring any attitude, other than one of awe and wonder at our marvelous machines, grinders, and most of all, the beverage they produce.
I guess that's why, in HB's case, I don't have any problem with the MVP thing.
But I certainly understand why others might.

Perhaps the word "valued" is not quite the perfect descriptor, as was mentioned by Ray, ALL are valued equally as MEMBERS, the word "Most" just being a quantitative descriptor of those who contribute to the body a bit more. Numbers. Semantics.

IMAWriter wrote:BTW, Ray, I feel you expressed your thought in a most respectful manner.

Thanks!

At the end of the day, it's Dan's forum, so he can run it as he sees fit, naturally. I've expressed my opinion on it and chosen to hide my MVP score, which satisfies the situation for me. If someone wants to display their score, it doesn't bother me. I just think the forum as a whole could probably function fine without the MVP system and I doubt anyone would miss it - least of all those with very low scores

Ray