Locked threads on HB.

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Double Shot
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Joined: 10 years ago

#1: Post by Double Shot »

Locked threads on HB.

I have never seen so many. Is it the time of year, or perhaps an overindulgence of caffeine? :lol:


...split from The craziest %#*$ing thing I've seen all day and Off-topic blathering by moderator...
LMWDP #480.

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NightFlight
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#2: Post by NightFlight »

Double Shot wrote:Locked threads on HB.

I have never seen so many. Is it the time of year, or perhaps an overindulgence of caffeine? :lol:
I thought the same thing, I see another one coming soon! :shock:

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liftmagnet
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#3: Post by liftmagnet replying to NightFlight »

Lately when i come to this site I feel like I am reading a hi-fi audio forum. There seems to be a correlation between how much money was spent and how hostile the thread is. Whether it be $400 USB cables or $200 bean storage tubes, there is no justification or sane reason for these purchases other than "because" and being financially able to do so. I never understood why people feel the need to justify their purchases to anyone else (especially on the internet)...

Tom@Steve'sEspresso
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#4: Post by Tom@Steve'sEspresso »

^^^ I was thinking the same thing, but now that you said it first I would HIGHLY concur.
LMWDP #222
Live graciously
Be kind
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Bret
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#5: Post by Bret »

liftmagnet wrote:Lately when i come to this site I feel like I am reading a hi-fi audio forum. There seems to be a correlation between how much money was spent and how hostile the thread is. Wether it be $400 USB cables or $200 bean storage tubes, there is no justification or sane reson for these purchases other than "because" and being financialy able to do so. I never understood why people feel the need to justify their purchases to anyone else (especially on the internet)...
Yep. It feels a lot like photography forums, too: a company makes a product, some members like it, own it, decide to buy it, etc. and get hounded by people who don't like it or own it which drowns out the objective conversations. But everyone here has invested time, effort, and money into this to some degree. It doesn't need to be a you-know-what contest all the time.

I have great camera gear. It's expensive. I make money with it. I don't have expensive coffee gear for the reasons (a) that I have expensive camera gear already 8) and (b) I can't justify for myself a need for several thousands of dollars in grinders and espresso machines. I make that judgement for myself, and only myself. I'm happy that others can and do choose whatever machine they prefer, and if I could justify a Slayer (and I have tried to, just a little!) for myself, I would get one.

It seems like whenever the gear I have is mentioned, it is somehow 'beneath people' and the snarks chime in to blast gear that they don't own, never have, and never will. I haven't been here long, so I don't know if this the norm or just, as mentioned, an unusual period with lots of threads ending up locked. I hope it isn't the norm. I'm worried that it might be only because there is another forum (that shall remain nameless) that is about the same (maybe because of a lot of common members?)

I'm grateful for what I have already learned here: it has been very helpful to me, and my results are greatly improved.

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another_jim
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#6: Post by another_jim »

The prehistory of this forum runs through alt.coffee, an unmoderated usenet forum and Coffeegeek, a strongly moderated forum where a high level of civility is enforced. HB is trying to steer a middle course between these two poles. But what exactly is this middle course?

There are several members here who have experience in all these fora; but I am not speaking for them, nor am I speaking in an official capacity for HB, but I would like to speak personally about the middle course I want to see as a member and that guides me as moderator.

Discussions can get heated for three reasons; and each has its own middle course.

The first are outright trolls who use personal attacks and are entirely inconsistent in their opinions and knowledge. Trolls often pose as skeptics, but there is a difference between asking for proof, or pointing out the poster has no proof; and telling posters they are idiots. Skeptics can be a pita; but they are essential, since they prevent a forum from floating off into cloud cuckoo land. Trolls, on the other hand, should be banned quickly. An unmoderated forum like alt.coffee cannot get rid of trolls. A polite forum like Coffeegeek often gets rid of pita skeptics too. We try to make the distinction.

The second is the fight between fans of a particular piece of gear and those who have had bad experiences with it. I believe the current spate of locked threads are mostly of this kind. The truth is that everything breaks, and every brand has lemons. The other truth is that the problem with most bad espresso is on the human side of the portafilter. The middle course is to be aware that either is a possibility.

We have some spectacularly good and patient troubleshooters; so in most cases, complaint and problem threads are resolved amicably and accurately. The problem arises with gear that attracts both a strong following of fans, and of wannabe fans who have entirely unreasonable expectations. Their arguments degenerates quickly into a caffeinated version of perfectionism and recrimination. The good news here is by the time members get to their second or third machine, they stop buying a slice of perfection and start buying actual coffee gear. It is also useful to note those vendors who actively promote very high expectations while attacking those who haven't fulfilled them.

The third is arguments about techniques, quality and taste. I personally like these arguments, since I think they get to the heart of what the forum is about. My opinion is there are two extremes to avoid. The first is that all taste, quality and technique is subjective. The second is that whatever I am defending has decades (or centuries, millennia, and deep time) levels of collective experience to support it (OK, I admit I'm partial to this argument on occasion). The middle way in an argument about technique or quality is to stipulate what kinds of evidence are persuasive. If no agreement on the kinds of relevant evidence can be reached; it seems likely the argument is not well framed.

Actual posting rules have to be much more specific and definite than this; but, at least for me, the point of the rules is always to achieve balanced and useful discussion.
Jim Schulman

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Jofari
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#7: Post by Jofari »

another_jim wrote:... I would like to speak personally about the middle course I want to see as a member and that guides me as moderator...
Well said.

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Double Shot (original poster)
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#8: Post by Double Shot (original poster) »

another_jim wrote:The prehistory of this forum runs through alt.coffee, an unmoderated usenet forum and Coffeegeek, a strongly moderated forum where a high level of civility is enforced. HB is trying to steer a middle course between these two poles.
And I for one appreciate it. My initial remark was a little tongue in cheek, I don't envy the site moderators their task. The majority of discussions on this site are valuable, entertaining and educational. It's an interesting hobby and far more involved than I would have imagined when I first started fooling around with it. Like any hobby there will be different points of view, and like someone much wiser than me stated, 'Opinions are like backsides. Everyone has one and some smell worse than others.'
LMWDP #480.

DanSF
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#9: Post by DanSF »

Returning to the issue of moderation and locked threads 8) ...

I want to double-down on the appreciation for the moderators and the hard work they do. I really appreciate the attempts to keep h-b troll free without over-sanitizing.

I also appreciate it b/c of the guilty pleasure I get from reading posts leading up to thread-lock, which I typically do even if it's a topic I have no interest in otherwise. There's a slow motion car crash beauty to seeing a thread veer and wondering how it will end. More-or-less controlled skid across the shoulder and into a ditch? Or explosive collision with a telephone pole? Good stuff!

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Compass Coffee
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#10: Post by Compass Coffee »

DanSF wrote:Returning to the issue of moderation and locked threads ...

I want to double-down on the appreciation for the moderators and the hard work they do. I really appreciate the attempts to keep h-b troll free without over-sanitizing.

I also appreciate it b/c of the guilty pleasure I get from reading posts leading up to thread-lock, which I typically do even if it's a topic I have no interest in otherwise. There's a slow motion car crash beauty to seeing a thread veer and wondering how it will end. More-or-less controlled skid across the shoulder and into a ditch? Or explosive collision with a telephone pole? Good stuff!
+1 on all accounts!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Mike McGinness

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