i have to admit i am sensitive to this question as at the SCAA convention in Miami (what yr was that) i overheard a ridiculous conversation between Ted Lingle and some other fellow that really did a dis-service to noobies (though they were talking newb roasters) who paid to enter the convention to learn and ruined my opinion of those two men. I find it disturbing that more people dont recognize the harm they do when they forget how they got to where they are. ... and I would say yea Jims response was technically appropriate, but his tone did not help the OP.

Maybe Jim shouldn't have replied. After all, its like asking Sir Issac Newton how to calculate 2+2

Coffee-Mark wrote:good thing im not coming here for newbie help or i would think most of you are a**holes! Someone should start Newbie-Barista so you wont be bothered by newbs looking for guidance.

There are quite a few people here who have a long history of helping newbies and answering the same questions over, and over and over... The answers to many of those questions could be discovered if the newbie would take the time and trouble to do a bit of research in the "FAQs" and "Resources."
- "Seek and ye shall find"
- "The good Lord helps those who help themselves."
etc.

Many times an acerbic or blunt answer seems to reflect an attitude like:
"..if you weren't so freakin' lazy and if you weren't part if the 'instant gratification' generation, maybe you could find the answer to that question yourself," or, "Which part of alphabetical order don't you get?" and maybe even, "It's OK. I remember MY first computer."

Maybe it is the attitude of the newbie expecting only one specific answer that exactly meets their expectations, and when those expectations are not met which has become the problem.

Whatever the case, your comment above is certainly uncalled for.

Coffee-Mark wrote:good thing im not coming here for newbie help or i would think most of you are ...

Hmm, name calling seems like by far the worst thing in either of these threads. Jim's answer doesn't attack the poster, it just points out a true fact that it is impossible to get really good espresso out of this type of equipment. He could have done it more gently, but his response just contained facts and was not personal. The OP and Mark are the ones who make it personal.

Imagine a cooking message board where someone asked how he should set his super-automatic cooking device to make great food. Should the posters pretend like there is a good way to do it, or should they point out that there is more to cooking than just buying expensive equipment?

Espresso is an odd hobby in that it is amazingly expensive to get competent equipment and yet relatively inexpensive to get to very top of the field. Like cooking it is also a hobby where you can't just buy your way to the top. You don't become a gourmet cook just by buying the most expensive stove and pots and pans and similarly - there is no such thing as gourmet espresso simply by virtue of buying a superautomatic (or a Robur and GS/3 for that matter).

If you do want to do it cheap by the way, I'll second the twist, hand grinder combo, but even so that will run a few hundred - already far more than almost any of us dreamed it would cost when we were newbies.

Hugh

I apologize for the offense. I could have found a more constructive way to criticise what i didnt like about that original post, .. Im sorry Jim and fellow H-B'ers for it is true i did take it personal. I realize that now.

.. and now i have a bad taste in my mouth .. like foot and jungle dirt

DAN,

What about adding a beginner sub-forum with some good stickies that outline the basic questions (buying a machine, pulling shots, frothing milk etc..)? It would be a great place for newbies to come introduce themself, find useful info, and ask beginner related questions.

just a thought.

cheers,
~j

HB wrote:I disagree. HB targets espresso fanatics; a dedicated "newbie" forum wouldn't be consistent with the site's stated demographic. Besides, there are other successful coffee sites that target a broader audience and it would be counter-productive for HB to compete with them.

I agree with you, HB...
There are numerous other choices where basic levels of conversation and information takes place with a leaning towards beginners and novices. I frequent them daily and participate regularly on a few of them. But overall, HB has become a welcome oasis with 99.9% friendly and fun conversation, high level and high quality discussion and information.

More does not mean better, and that becomes even more true if having more means lowering standards that have, up to now, proven effective and valuable.

46,000 hits on Google for "measuring temperature of espresso brewing."
The OP could have found the answer there, but no one to insult on Google...

I was just closing down my browser for the night, still had the Goggle search I mentioned above opened in a tab. My article on the subject was the third hit!!! The first two? home-barista.com links.

"And thus it is written that the mad shall gather together to sip black liquid and pontificate over their beverages." Arabicas 2:28

If you don't bother to look at the FAQs or use the search function before posting a question on a forum you're not a coffee newbie. You're a bad user.

Coffee newbies are (in general) well treated here IMHO.
Bad users are (in general) treated overly well here IMHO (compared to other forums).

Our job is not to teach people how to use the internet.

+1

malachi wrote:If you don't bother to look at the FAQs or use the search function before posting a question on a forum you're not a coffee newbie. You're a bad user.

Coffee newbies are (in general) well treated here IMHO.
Bad users are (in general) treated overly well here IMHO (compared to other forums).

Our job is not to teach people how to use the internet.