A common way to name long term products is by positioning rather than by generation, i.e. DE1 = entry, DE2= mid, DE3= top. The generation is appended, i.e. DE1b or DE1 Series 2 or DE1.1.

This way the long term positioning dominates in the market's memory and the iteration is secondary.

I like these monikers...in line with the Decent Espresso's playful, fantasy graphics.

"Sequencer" might be another name to add for even more complex systems....

DE1 = GS4

DE1+ = SlayerSlayer

Just an FYI that I've recently posted 3 new episodes of our "Spilling the Beans" video series, with the most recent one (#9) being likely most interesting to HBers, as there is lots shown about how we put our machine together.

Decent Espresso "Spilling the Beans" [video]

Thank you for your prompt and detailed response on 27Nov2016, and apologies for my late reply.

decent_espresso wrote:Long ago I measured the temperature of cups warmed on top of the espresso machine, and they're about 50°C. The DE1+ has a dedicated "warm the cup" hot water delivery, which heats it to 80°C with about 10s of near-boiling water. You get a hotter cup and less energy waste.

Interesting info on the 50°C of traditional systems. Agree, less energy waste with DE, and nice benefit of your infinitely programmable setup to have a dedicated "warm the cup" button.

decent_espresso wrote:Our water is flash heated and appears to be more oxygenated, and this might cause more crema.

Interesting theory, makes sense at some level.

decent_espresso wrote:The mixing chamber is solid teflon. It's one of the more expensive parts in the machine. For the quantities we're doing, we're not able to cast stainless steel into a complicated shape, nor am I sure that would even work, as it would cool the water down too much, whereas teflon is a great insulator.

Makes sense, although some irrational part of me is not 100% thrilled as compared to SS only. I understand that the max temperature reached is well below the max safe operating temperature of teflon, and the flowrates are so low that erosion should not be a problem, so your approach makes sense. So I am fine with it, as in it will not stop me from buying one, so I guess I am just conveying my thoughts, including the irrational ones, for what it is worth.

decent_espresso wrote:If you really object to no lid,

I am fine with your solution, was just wondering about the gap, and 1mm sounds fine. I am all for simplicity if possible.

Regarding group head cover material

decent_espresso wrote:It must be plastic for us to pass UL, because the group head is really hot, and the max heat allowed for any metallic surface is quite low, I think maybe 40° if I remember correctly, where as a plastic can be hotter (was it 65°C) so while it'd be nice to have a metal group head cover, it would be too hot to pass UL.

That is interesting. Many traditional E61 group heads are solid metal (=allowed), so that would suggest that their thickness and thus heat capacity, combined with the relatively low duty-cycle of amount of water per shot and how often it is passed through, results in a temperature rise above that from constant preheating which does not exceed 40°? Anyway, and the end of the day I am OK with your plastic cover, especially at that price point, and understand why it is used. But when I see the nice cast part you have made, I can't help but feel that it would have been nicer if you had also cast an equivalent upper external piece that would be polished and mounted using low-conduction risers and allowing an airgap. Would imagine this could also meet the temperature requirements. OK, I admit I am getting carried away here, and I am fine with your solution, so am just conveying how I ideally would prefer it.



Does your "happiness guaranteed" policy transfer to a new owner if sold used? I ask as someone who has hemmed and hawed over which version to order, and have now for budget reasons decided on a DE1 while allowing myself the possibility of upgrading to a DE2+ in the future. So the ability to resell is important.

Regarding the roadshow machine failures and the new plan of improving them prior to first shipment, I too am impressed with this kind of openness. It is very unusual. Naturally it is disappointing that delivery is postponed, and yes it does make one wonder if it is too risky to order the first version, but you come across as clearly insisting on quality, and with the capability of achieving that. So I for one am still in.

Naming: I prefer the simplicity of DE1/DE1+. Short, sweet, clear, and fits well with the entire feel of the machine, its design language and philosophy behind it. Next gen will be DE2+, ...

mm1854 wrote:Makes sense, although some irrational part of me is not 100% thrilled as compared to SS only. I understand that the max temperature reached is well below the max safe operating temperature of teflon, and the flowrates are so low that erosion should not be a problem, so your approach makes sense. So I am fine with it, as in it will not stop me from buying one, so I guess I am just conveying my thoughts, including the irrational ones, for what it is worth.

FYI, on this point, we appear to be moving away from PTFE (teflon) for the manifold, as it is a bit softer than we like. Also, we're looking forward to a time when we are NSF (commercial use) compliant, so we are limiting ourselves to NSF certified materials. There are some glass fiber-reinforced resin that are specifically used for high pressure, acid neutrality, and already NSF certified. Our current choices looks like the photo below, but it's a bit brittle at the moment (tendency to crack when threading), so we're still perfecting this. Another thing we like about this material is that it's semi-transparent, so that calcification can be seen.

If anyone knows much about materials science, your comments in this area would be very happily received.

The material in the photo below is called "ULTEM 2100F PEI 10% GF" https://www.sabic-ip.com/gep/Plastics/e ... ultem.html and the photo is of our current water mixing chamber design.

mm1854 wrote:That is interesting. Many traditional E61 group heads are solid metal (=allowed), so that would suggest that their thickness and thus heat capacity, combined with the relatively low duty-cycle of amount of water per shot and how often it is passed through, results in a temperature rise above that from constant preheating which does not exceed 40°?

I can't say for sure, but it might be that (a) the E61 machines you're talking about aren't UL certified or (B) they're certified for commercial use, where higher temperatures are allowed.

UL tells us that higher temperatures are allowed on the group head cover if we put a non-removable warning label on it. Yuck.

This "warning approach" is what the GS/3 does:



I think it's possible that UL used to allow the label to be removable (I took it off my GS/3) but that they no longer allow that.

mm1854 wrote:Anyway, and the end of the day I am OK with your plastic cover, especially at that price point, and understand why it is used. But when I see the nice cast part you have made, I can't help but feel that it would have been nicer if you had also cast an equivalent upper external piece that would be polished and mounted using low-conduction risers and allowing an airgap. Would imagine this could also meet the temperature requirements. OK, I admit I am getting carried away here, and I am fine with your solution, so am just conveying how I ideally would prefer it.

I agree with you that a piece of metal would be both prettier and stronger, and thus better. A potential future solution is a cast polished metal, with a foam insulation layer formed on the inside. That part alone would probably run about $40, though, at current volumes, with a high minimum order quantity, so we can't go there now.

mm1854 wrote:Does your "happiness guaranteed" policy transfer to a new owner if sold used? I ask as someone who has hemmed and hawed over which version to order, and have now for budget reasons decided on a DE1 while allowing myself the possibility of upgrading to a DE2+ in the future. So the ability to resell is important.

From an Internet reputation standpoint, we have to make sure that anyone who has anything that says DECENT on it is happy.

I always want to make sure that there is a healthy aftermarket for Decent gear, for just the reason you indicated: so that people who love our stuff have a way to get rid of old gear on the used market, to make space for new gear.

I used to be in the used book business (http://www.bookmooch.com) and strongly believe that a healthy used market encourages people to buy new in the first place.

mm1854 wrote:Regarding the roadshow machine failures and the new plan of improving them prior to first shipment, I too am impressed with this kind of openness. It is very unusual. Naturally it is disappointing that delivery is postponed, and yes it does make one wonder if it is too risky to order the first version, but you come across as clearly insisting on quality, and with the capability of achieving that. So I for one am still in.

I can post a short update on that: my new senior mechanical engineer (David Crist) has just about finished his rethink of the internal layout of the DE1, and has been posting his work this week to our internal engineering discussion.

I've hired Jeremy Kuempel, the ME who designed and now runs the Blossom Coffee Machine (http://blossomcoffee.com) to audit David's work and provide his own feedback to our DE1 designed. I'm quite pleased to have Jeremy helping, as his five year experience with Blossom is just about the closest fit on the planet with what we're doing, only he's five year's ahead of our schedule. Blossom's EE Matt is also going to review the DE1 internals now.

mm1854 wrote:Naming: I prefer the simplicity of DE1/DE1+. Short, sweet, clear, and fits well with the entire feel of the machine, its design language and philosophy behind it. Next gen will be DE2+, ...

Ok, cool. Nothing really "wow, that's it!" came out of the naming conversation, so I'm sticking with that.

First post and new reader to HB. Thinking about testing the waters in espressoland.

decent_espresso wrote:Ok, cool. Nothing really "wow, that's it!" came out of the naming conversation, so I'm sticking with that.

Aww, you didn't like the MEGA = making espresso great again? That made me laugh. Perhaps instead of a name change, the plus should be available in different colors. I suppose the real issue is making sure the customer understands the differences in internals vs "oh, the plus comes in red and double the price."

I live in SF where counterspace is at a premium and began my search for small form factor hx (lelit mara) and db (profitec 300) machines. After learning about your machine, I'm thinking that as a newbie perhaps your machine would be ideal. Looks like I can test out hx, db, and lever profiles and end this frustrating decision between each. See if my taste buds can actually tell a diff (probably not). lol. This by the way is what I see as the main diff between DE and DE+. Is that right, or am I just confused? Temp/flow/pressure profiling is what I'm understanding the + adds. Which in layman terms = hx, db, lever profiles. ??

In addition to the above I also see the DE+ being an excellent diagnostic tool. From dialing in shots to discovering weak links in your work flow. This leads me to my question/suggestion. This thread has produced quite a few experiments and you seem to know what things to try "to fix it." Based on the machines measurements is there a way to provide a guided troubleshooter? i.e. if x,y,z happen, then channeling is occurring and check your tamp and grind. continue troubleshooting by isolating the symptoms down until you've reached satisfaction (basically i want consistent god shots lol). perhaps there are too many variables leading to too many solutions? i have not read enough to know. But that said, I've read that you definitely use the stats the machine is giving you to point you in a certain direction of possible solutions. Is there a way to explain this easily? Don't get me wrong, with an engineering background I find learning about all this fascinating, BUT I will likely never reach expert level.

I like the following charts for example:

and


I am looking forward to the april timeframe!

anakinstoys wrote:This by the way is what I see as the main diff between DE and DE+

Yes, the main way to compare the DE1 vs the DE1+ is the DE1+ is for someone wants to see what's going on when they're making espresso, and they want to be able to change things. ie, an experimenter.

However, the DE1+ does have some things that are aimed at making actually better tasting espresso, such as the 'basket temperature' water temperature mixing mode.

Have you seen this page?
https://decentespresso.com/compare

anakinstoys wrote:Aww, you didn't like the MEGA = making espresso great again?

Your word play joke is definitely excellent!

anakinstoys wrote: That made me laugh. Perhaps instead of a name change, the plus should be available in different colors. I suppose the real issue is making sure the customer understands the differences in internals vs "oh, the plus comes in red and double the price."

Yes, I agree.

anakinstoys wrote:I live in SF where counterspace is at a premium and began my search for small form factor hx (lelit mara) and db (profitec 300) machines. After learning about your machine, I'm thinking that as a newbie perhaps your machine would be ideal. Looks like I can test out hx, db, and lever profiles and end this frustrating decision between each. See if my taste buds can actually tell a diff (probably not). lol.

You'll *definitely* be able to taste the difference between a lever shot and a flat-pressure-profile shot. The difference is striking. I've found that most beans taste better with a declining pressure profile, though I have come across the occasional bean that shines best at flat-9-bars. With a declining pressure profile, you can successfully pull longer shots, with controlled acidity, and this will give you a very different taste profile.

anakinstoys wrote:But that said, I've read that you definitely use the stats the machine is giving you to point you in a certain direction of possible solutions. Is there a way to explain this easily? Don't get me wrong, with an engineering background I find learning about all this fascinating, BUT I will likely never reach expert level.

Yes, that's where we'll move to, but the information displayed on the DE1+ is something new, and as such, it's not yet clear how to interpret everything. For example, a flow rate over 2ml/s during espresso will probably be too high, BUT Rao has a recipe for making great "espresso allongé" at speeds even faster than that. For now, instead of a machine telling you what things mean, we'll make videos about what we think things mean, other baristi can add their own thoughts to the pile, and if there's consensus, then sure, we can have the DE1+ offer its opinions.

My preference is that the machine analysis side of the DE1+ be performed by user-installed plugins, so that there is competition, lots of choice, and users get to decide what analysis they want.

decent_espresso wrote:I agree with you that a piece of metal would be both prettier and stronger, and thus better. A potential future solution is a cast polished metal, with a foam insulation layer formed on the inside. That part alone would probably run about $40, though, at current volumes, with a high minimum order quantity, so we can't go there now.

The potential future solution sounds great. Totally get that it is not feasible for your first run and wanting to hit the target $999, but it would be great if it later was offered as an upgrade. Ideally this piece could be mounted with hidden screws from below avoiding the visible single screw from above used with the plastic cover. It would further aid the illusion of a single solid piece. That may however require adding some mounting tabs to the group head casting. Just thinking out loud here.

decent_espresso wrote: From an Internet reputation standpoint, we have to make sure that anyone who has anything that says DECENT on it is happy.

I always want to make sure that there is a healthy aftermarket for Decent gear, for just the reason you indicated: so that people who love our stuff have a way to get rid of old gear on the used market, to make space for new gear.

I used to be in the used book business (http://www.bookmooch.com) and strongly believe that a healthy used market encourages people to buy new in the first place.

Nice.

decent_espresso wrote: I can post a short update on that: my new senior mechanical engineer (David Crist) has just about finished his rethink of the internal layout of the DE1, and has been posting his work this week to our internal engineering discussion.

I've hired Jeremy Kuempel, the ME who designed and now runs the Blossom Coffee Machine (http://blossomcoffee.com) to audit David's work and provide his own feedback to our DE1 designed. I'm quite pleased to have Jeremy helping, as his five year experience with Blossom is just about the closest fit on the planet with what we're doing, only he's five year's ahead of our schedule. Blossom's EE Matt is also going to review the DE1 internals now.

Thanks for the update. Sounds really good. Also, interesting to see the Blossom Coffee Machine. Looks like a quality piece. A good reminder of how much technology/product we are getting for the $ with the DE.

mm1854 wrote:The potential future solution sounds great. Totally get that it is not feasible for your first run and wanting to hit the target $999, but it would be great if it later was offered as an upgrade. Ideally this piece could be mounted with hidden screws from below avoiding the visible single screw from above used with the plastic cover. It would further aid the illusion of a single solid piece. That may however require adding some mounting tabs to the group head casting. Just thinking out loud here.

Actually, the latest revision of our group head no longer has the mounting screw on top. The final version will have a brushed steel metallic finish, not this satin silver finish. With the extra time we've given ourselves, we're able to make a lot of little improvements that I hope the first DE1 buyers will appreciate having waited for. Also note that the slot on the back for lifting the water intake tube is now a thin slot, not the 2cm wide slot that the previous revisions had.