PV Lusso is a 45mm group, adding plumb in may be a challenge.

Bezzera is a 58mm group, ready to plumb in.

The PV steamwand arrangement is less than ideal; the Bezzera's looks much more user friendly.

well it looks like I'm acquiring a gaggia group to tinker with...so this is moving faster than I thought. It may be a rossi group though. I post more info next (yes I know it is spring so this could get complicated).

Are there other engineers on here that are into levers?

truemagellen wrote: Only the Rancilio's HL cube like thing has sort of fit the bill and I cannot find those anywhere....

WOW! That is right down my alley. I love modern/minimal design and it's clean lines.

orphanespresso wrote:But as a start, you can get a CMA group, complete, for about 300 Euro and hook it up to a boiler that, safety tested runs about 800 Euro and add the 200 Euro worth of control components and tubing and voila....a Cremina begins to sound cheap!!!

You can get a complete 2 litre NS Oscar boiler for 200 Euro.
http://www.espressomaschinendoctor.de/E...15998.html

This isn't compatible with dipperfed groups though as they need a mounting flange which the Oscar boiler doesn't have.
But thermosyphon wouldn't be an issue I guess.

Conti also sells complete 2 group spare boilers through their website for 250 Euro. Check their website. Their spare parts support is exhaustive.

orphanespresso wrote:
But as a start, you can get a CMA group, complete, for about 300 Euro and hook it up to a boiler that, safety tested runs about 800 Euro and add the 200 Euro worth of control components and tubing and voila....a Cremina begins to sound cheap!!!

Not often you get to say that a Cremina sounding cheap!

Bluecold wrote:You can get a complete 2 litre NS Oscar boiler for 200 Euro.
http://www.espressomaschinendoctor.de/E...15998.html

This isn't compatible with dipperfed groups though as they need a mounting flange which the Oscar boiler doesn't have.
But thermosyphon wouldn't be an issue I guess.

Conti also sells complete 2 group spare boilers through their website for 250 Euro. Check their website. Their spare parts support is exhaustive.

Wow that is great, the oscar boiler even comes insulated. Maybe I'll just do a shot only machine first and then make a more rugged machine second. I'm not trying to redo what the italians have perfected but rather just make more radical design cosmetically.

truemagellen wrote:I've seen the frankenlever thing but I mean making a lever group from scratch.

A manual lever group could easily be machined... the costs would be the metal and the machining which isn't all that expensive due to the fact this isn't high precision machine work.

I've seen much more complex projects accomplished on various other forums by members alone.

So you think it is easy Hmmmm... Ever used a lathe or milling machine? Ever looked at the price of a 4" X 6" block of brass?
The intricacies involved in machining a grouphead are complex and very multifaceted. I have owned lathes and milling machines and worked with metals for years. It takes expertise and knowledge to know what processes need to be done in the correct order so that you don't end up with a piece of useless junk half way through the project. And tolerances tighter than you think to make a well functioning grouphead.
Don't get me wrong ... It can be done... but it is not a simple task.

truemagellen wrote:I'm not trying to redo what the italians have perfected but rather just make more radical design cosmetically.

Well, that's a clear goal with lots of interesting possible outcomes, but ... not much commercial potential, right? I mean, once in a while a cafe or restaurant might find the esthetics appealing, but I don't know, if it were me I'd want to buy my equipment from established firms who can take care of me.

As a domestic appliance, it's absurd. I have one. That isn't what the Italians have perfected. In fact, the Italians seem to have abandoned the field: sure, they make domestic levers, but they have no idea how to scale them down to the kitchen countertop AND make them work as well as the big commercial levers, so we have the Europiccolas et al., which suffer from brew temperature problems, and maybe better performance (?) but worse footprint from the larger Ponte Vecchios. Will they try anything really different, or even bring back designs from decades past that worked better at domestic scale? Wouldn't hold my breath.

It has been perfected - in the Caravel. Stamped and welded stainless sheet metal and a lightweight aluminum casting. Form, function, manufacturing cost, and maintainability - all optimized.

Ben Z. wrote:It has been perfected - in the Caravel. Stamped and welded stainless sheet metal and a lightweight aluminum casting. Form, function, manufacturing cost, and maintainability - all optimized.

Couple this with an optimized steamer and you're set.