Hi, my name is Andrew and I wanted to introduce myself to the forum since I've been lurking for a while. I spend a good part of every year in Florence, Italy and going down to the corner bar for an espresso/cappuccino is a ritual that I didn't want to give up by buying a machine.

Now I'm in California and miss it and chafe at spending $3.00 for a bad attempt. (Though there are some good coffee houses nearby). While I hope to eventually find a Faemina in an Italian flea market to bring home I'm looking at the SAMA/PonteVecchio/Pavoni/Cremina world for a machine that is very durable, fun to use, and makes really good coffee. I've already got a pretty involved routine to get some decent coffee out of my french press so I think I'm ready for the lever maneuvers. For moral/aesthetic issues I'd prefer a used/vintage machine. I'll probably be using a hand grinder so throwing out half of the shots isn't too appealing (although i expect and have no problems with an anticipated long learning curve).

I'm scouting the craigslist/ebay/yard sale world for a working lever machine and have the obvious question of the initiate. Which one to choose? Vintage Europiccola?/Olympia?/Sama-P.V.? Assuming I eventually can troll a decent working machine (or plan on having one rebuilt) any recommendations from someone who's used them all? (I drink probably 1-3 espresso/cappuccini a day). Surprisingly, my Italian wife drinks neither wine nor coffee and will likely have a fit if she finds out i'm thinking of buying a machine (although if i tell her I got it at a yard sale and they were going to throw it out she'll be o.k.)

Thanks for any advice. I appreciate the candor and experience I've read in the posts and threads.
Andrew.

Andrew, you have raised a number of important issues in your very first post. Let me attempt to address at least some of them.

Without meaning to be (too) flippant, the lever which is the most fun to use is the one that makes the best espresso. How you find out which machine that is, is another issue entirely.

I started getting "seriously into" cappuccino (first) and espresso (second) while at Uncle Charlie's Summer Camp. That was long ago and far away, back when Stevenson had the best espresso in town, Caffè Pergolesi was still on Pacific, and Lulu Carpenter's was a first-rate bar (that didn't know what coffee was, unless the word "Irish" preceded it). I bought a new Pavoni Europiccola for $299 at the Farmer's Exchange and a Krups blade grinder and -- I was set! Yeah, for about five years of major frustration . . . sometimes I'd choke the Europiccola; sometimes the espresso would be fine. But the most Royal PITA about the thing was the small boiler -- if any more than two people were having coffee (or if I forgot to fill the boiler), I was up the proverbial creek without a paddle. I finally got fed up and got a Gaggia Coffee and never looked back . . .

The point is that, even if your wife doesn't drink wine or coffee (you've checked her birth certificate? her passport? you're sure she's Italian?), other people will be over at your house from time to time. Make sure whatever machine you eventually get can keep up.

Personally, since you are looking towards vintage/used machines, I'd take a serious look at anything that became available! They don't come up all that often. Were it me, I'd pass on the Europiccola unless it was a 16 (larger boiler!). Even then, however, I'd think twice about it -- they seem more temperamental than, say, an Olympia Cremina, a Ponte Vecchio Lusso, or a Sama/PV Export.

Don't forget to check out Orphan Espresso, as they are a great source for old machines, parts, and hand grinders. Check out the Italian eBay, too, as there are a couple of people there who often have older machines available, and they ship to the US.

Cheers,
Jason

Get on Enrico Maltoni's mailing list for the most interesting and beautiful historic machines for sale that you are ever likely to see. http://www.espressomadeinitaly.com

He is currently offering this restored 1958 La Cimbali Rubino for E600.



And I want to say what a tribute it is to the fine upbringing of the Home-barista.com community that no one has made a wisecrack about your subject line.

Marshall wrote:And I want to say what a tribute it is to the fine upbringing of the Home-barista.com community that no one has made a wisecrack about your subject line.

Until now

And in answer to Jason, yes it probably is the one that makes the best coffee, but I do love the idea of a manual lever instead of a spring since it is an even simpler design. I'm not sure it makes better espresso, but I love the control and the process.

Welcome Andrew.

There is much written on this site about the various lever machines, so I will remain objective and not go into detail about the advantages of different ones, (get the PV Lusso, get the PV Lusso, get the PV Lusso).

Seriously, searching manual vs. lever, searching by machine name, etc., will supply you with a wealth of information. I'm looking forward to hearing about the machine you choose and your initial experiences as a leverhead.

Basically, I agree with da gino... there is something about the fun of controlling the pull that to me trumps the final result - provided the final result is pretty close...

Here's a hypothetical... let's say you had a choice - and you had to choose just one - between either your current lever machine or a mythically theoretical fully automatic that produced the same absolutely perfect shot, each & every time, without fail, at the touch of a button - but only at the touch of a button. Which machine would you choose? For me, no contest... I want the lever, not the button. Somehow, the DIY participatory element & the variability it introduces enhances the overall experience far more than would "the perfect cup every time".

As for the subject line... (Thanks, Marshall - I think - for prompting a more critical re-reading...)

r-gordon-7 wrote:Here's a hypothetical... let's say you had a choice - and you had to choose just one - between either your current lever machine or a mythically theoretical fully automatic that produced the same absolutely perfect shot, each & every time, without fail, at the touch of a button - but only at the touch of a button. Which machine would you choose?

If I could preset the parameters, but adjust the presets from time to time for variety, I would trade in my current setup in a hearbeat.

r-gordon-7 wrote:Here's a hypothetical... let's say you had a choice - and you had to choose just one - between either your current lever machine or a mythically theoretical fully automatic that produced the same absolutely perfect shot, each & every time, without fail, at the touch of a button - but only at the touch of a button. Which machine would you choose?

Keeping in mind that I love the idea of a lever -- and, indeed, my first machine was a Europiccola, and I presently own a Caravel -- I wouldn't trade-in my main machine (an Elektra T1) for anything . . . well, OK, for one of Kees van der Westen's 2-group Mirage models, sure! But my problem is that, while I love the idea, the romance, of a manual lever machine, the reality is just too far removed from the idea . . .

I've made a small handful of excellent espresso shots with the Caravel, but nothing compared to the number of truly outstanding shots from my Elektra -- with a level of consistent quality I've yet to even come close to on the Caravel. Don't misunderstand: I enjoy the Caravel, but the considerable "ease of use" of the Elektra combined with the consistently high quality -- there's no contest. For me. Clearly this differs with the individual.

Now, if you're talking about a lever vs. a superauto -- yes, well, while I can see the hypothetical advantage to merely saying, "Tea. Earl Grey. Hot" . . . I'll take the lever!

Maybe I can have the best of both and simply get this:



Cheers,
Jason

Leaving aside the buttons and levers argument, the obvious thing about lever machines, as you've pointed out in saying you'd prefer a manual even if you could get better results with a spring, is that they're.... incredibly personal.

That's why none of the posters here, and they have plenty of experience with different machines, have written go out and get "X".

Many people will prefer a machine that offers predictability, but there is on the other hand a great deal of satisfaction in managing to definitely run through all the fiddles and futzes that allow you to get great coffee out of a fussy lever with consistency.

And don't neglect appearance. That also plays a role.

For some (tying in with the title) lever action is as important as anything else - what pulling a shot feels like, what the tactile element and feedback is like. Some machines are better at this than others, without that necessarily meaning they make better coffee.... or worse. And then of course one man's great smooth, full-bodied ristretto is another's overconcentrated horror.

So the bad news is you will only ever know by trying them out.

But certain things will help.

For example, I would second getting a Pavoni Pro over a Europiccola - not so much for being able to make more cups in a row, or being able to steam slightly better if that is important to you, but above all because it comes with a pressure gauge, so you can adjust the pressurestat more effectively. Unless you want to cart it around, in which case you may prefer the dimensions of the Europiccola (even here all sorts of things come into play).

The Caravel has very controllable temperature behaviour because it's an open boiler and is pretty reliable although out of production. It's also very cute. On the other hand it has a slightly detached lever action and isn't a great lever machine to be used alongside others because it requires quite a different grind, mainly because of the very narrow but deep basket (you have a very narrow window to get it right). It can't steam either. But it can deliver wonderful smooth ristrettos, normales and lungos, albeit either very syrupy or slightly light in body with a transition point that's more difficult to hit than on other machines (in my experience). It is not however a crema monster. It produces a good persistant crema, but not that much of it.

If you like volume and lots of crema, you will find that easier to achieve on a Pavoni, but getting the temperature right without fuss is MUCH easier on the Caravel. Which you will prefer using is going to be personal. I like both machines but am afraid I probably prefer using the Pavoni, although if push came to shove I would have to say I think the Caravel is a better design!

The Pavoni is a collossal pain to use in some ways and is very overpriced considering the way it is bolted together. You will have a much steeper learning curve, and although the later models overheat somewhat less easily I don't like the lever action with the new nylon sleeve. The Cremina is much sexier on the lever action....

The Elektra is a spring machine, but it produces a clarity that's exceptional....

But then that may not be what you're after. I've dropped in some of those comments to give you an idea of what you will need to imagine to get a feel of what machine is for. But it's also worth thinking about all the aspects of how you are going to use it. Do you need to make a quick exit in the morning? Do you work from home? Will you be drinking half a dozen cups through the day. Do you want to stop for a little relaxing espresso ritual, or just walk over, grind, pull and go? When entertaining in the evening are all your friends coffee fiends, or will they insist on decaf or nothing at all?

And space is also worth thinking about. That Mirage is a hell of a machine, but it wouldn't fit in my kitchen in a way that would lead anywhere except to the divorce courts.

BTW - 10 years in Bologna on my side, married to an Italian (sorry! Sardinian) who hardly ever drinks wine and most of the time will only drink coffee out of her Alessi moka pot!

Cheers

Mike

The most "fun" to use....

For me a statement like that boils down to:
(1) Will make exceptional espresso
(2) Looks nice and proud to have it on my counter
(3) Most importantly is manual enough to allow for the machine to "get out of my way" and give me what I want. But automatic enough to not be frustrating to learn or extremely difficult to change shot parameters.

Being able to make perfect espresso EVERY time is for sure a nice peace of mind, but I don't think that machine would be very fun unless you can change things. Change itself is what makes things fun for me, and being able to tinker a bit (which includes disassembling the entire machine for maintenance) is great. For me #3 is what I think so many people are looking for. We want manual control in the right areas such as temperature selection (i.e. PID), but we usually don't want to have to hold a thermocouple and cycle the heating element with a switch by hand. Also #3 has to be qualified for your level of knowledge and experience. Oddly enough I purchased a "full" manual La Pavoni Europpicola, but for me the process of learning the machine and now using it as my only espresso machine has been a joy and with these forums actually much easier than most people said it would be. But I fully believe that if one of my friends who are less serious about coffee tried the same machine they would have never gotten anything drinkable. Be honest with yourself because finding a "fun" machine for you is like walking on the edge of a knife. Too manual and you'll pull your hair out because you have no idea what's wrong. Too automatic and you'll feel like a Starbucks employee.

I would suggest you write down what you consider to be fun, and then go from there. Many people have different definitions, and fun to you could mean the ability to make 30 milk based drinks in a very short amount of time for guests and look like a wizard. Something I could never do on my Pavoni.

Just my 2 cents. Hope it helps.

michaelbenis wrote:Leaving aside the buttons and levers argument, the obvious thing about lever machines, as you've pointed out in saying you'd prefer a manual even if you could get better results with a spring, is that they're.... incredibly personal.

A great point, Michael, and absolutely spot on!

michaelbenis wrote:The Caravel has very controllable temperature behaviour because it's an open boiler and is pretty reliable although out of production. It's also very cute. On the other hand it has a slightly detached lever action and isn't a great lever machine to be used alongside others because it requires quite a different grind, mainly because of the very narrow but deep basket (you have a very narrow window to get it right).

This is precisely why I have two grinders and two machines in my office: one for the Caravel; one for La Valentina . . . it's still not always easy for me to coax the most out of the Caravel, but -- as long as I have the time and patience for it -- the rewards are/can be well-worth it.

I actually find the Caravel easier to use than the Pavoni- or rather not easier to use- but easier to pull a god-shot. Pavoni I find very hard to get the grind correct. Howver my really old 1960's Pavoni works better than my 1990's model. No idea why.


And when I have the grind right- I get mounds of crema from the Caravel. If I was a black only drinker a Caravel would be my first and last stop. A good Cravel- treated well- I think such a machine could still be going strong in the year 2030...

unfortunately I love the milk... so hopefully my new Sama will be the business.

I actually find the Caravel easier to use than the Pavoni- or rather not easier to use- but easier to pull a god-shot. Pavoni I find very hard to get the grind correct. Howver my really old 1960's Pavoni works better than my 1990's model. No idea why.

Likely because of the 49mm basket vs the newer 51mm. My experience has been that a smaller basket is less picky about distribution and grind. I have the older 49mm basket so maybe my experience is skewed as such.

I'd agree it's easier to pull a good shot on the Caravel. There's a zone where the shots really excel, though, which is just a hair short of choking the little beast, but takes the shots to a whole new level. Even tamping slightly softer or harder can take you back into so-so territory from there.

I find I have a bit more leeway around that sweetspot with grind on the Pavoni, and my Pav is a millennium model, which I agree is fussier, especially for singles using the pod basket.

I do find the Caravel requires a slightly coarser grind, which may make it less fussy about grinders.

In my hands it has never produced much more crema than my Elektra and slightly less than the Pav. It is however always a very dense persistent crema.

The Pav is much more of a PITA to get right consistently, but once you've got the hang of it, you've got the hang of it....

I'd say SAMA/PV Export.

Fairly inconspicuous so his Italian wife won't send him to meet the Big Barista. The vintage Cimbali in Marshall's pic would be a death warrant.

Rectilinear, to satisfy his commingled moral/aesthetic sense. Clearly the ornate Pavoni is too flighty.

Less expensive, probably, than a Cremina. The OP chafes at spending $3 on a store-bought espresso.

Able to produce milk drinks, so he can practice his Italian plurals.

Hands free operation during the extraction. Idle hands are the devil's workshop. There's the fun he asked for.

The silver and brass Elektra Microcasa a Leva is beautiful to look at and pulls a nice shot too. Guests seem drawn to her... not an inconspicuous presence in the kitchen. Could be thought of as kitchen bling.

Mark

How about the vintage SAMA Export at Orphan Espresso? It is surely the most fun—it is red, it is refurbished so you can make espresso instead of working on it, and it is beautiful.

Having used many different machines, both spring lever and manual lever, I would suggest the Elektra as well. Nice looking machine, great for making a few shots in a row without the temperature problems, super steam capabilities. Only drawback is you would have to be more careful with your grind. (I modded mine so the grind is not as critical http://www.home-barista.com/lever...this-is-t5412.html). I use mine at home with a manual grinder and it works great.

As far as the manual levers are concerned, I started out with a La pavoni Europiccola, and used a pro 16 ounce Pavoni (Ambassador) as well. They were both alot of fun. Frustrating, but so rewarding when things got more consistent. Some of my best shots came from the Europiccola. However, I have both of Pavoni's on a shelf and use the Elektra at home. That is until my Faemina arrives from Italy and then we will see what will happen. Another important thing to consider is that if you will make espresso for friends once in a while, the La Pavoni will overheat, especially if you steam.

Hope you find something that suits your needs and enjoy a good cup.

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies to my opening post.
The two cafe's mentioned in S.Cruz are still open. Lulu's is now at the octagon and has a Mirage (automatic) and the espressos are very good. Cafe Pergolesi is also still very good but as I lack any visible piercings/body mutilations I feel sort of inadequate going in there.

I am in fact looking hard at the PV/Sama export. I sort of like its awkward blockiness and the thought of a working machine is appealing. If I ever find that the boiler is too small I could always change over to a larger boiler machine (PV Lusso or Cremina) later on once I have a clue of what I'm doing.
Looks are important but as my wife always says, "Italians are famous for beautiful design that often doesn't always work so well" so I'd prefer a solid, well built machine over the chrome and brass trim and wings (and lack the current budget to pay for one that has both)
I'd hate to open up the steam valve and have the machine spit parts out at me.

I'll be back in Florence for the summer so I'll try and pick up a Caravel over there. They show up pretty often in the 2nd hand shops and I'll get a chance to try one out over there. Meanwhile I'll brood some more over what to do over here.
Thanks again for the advice, I'll post again once I've gotten off the fence and made a decision.
Andrew.

rospobio wrote:vec
I am in fact looking hard at the PV/Sama export. I sort of like its awkward blockiness and the thought of a working machine is appealing. If I ever find that the boiler is too small I could always change over to a larger boiler machine (PV Lusso or Cremina) later on once I have a clue of what I'm doing.

If I were going to get a Ponte Vecchio I think I would get the Lusso for its better temperature management.