Trouble dialing in Ponte Vecchio Lusso

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epurc
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#1: Post by epurc »

I recently purchased a Lusso that I am using with my Vario and have had trouble getting a reasonable shot out of. Psat is at 1.2. My general technique is as follows:

1) Weigh out 17.5-18g of beans (most recently Ritual Sweet Tooth Hunapu Bourbon)
2) Grind directly into portafilter w/ OE funnel, tap until grounds are completely in portafilter, tamp directly down (with variable strength)
3) Attach portafilter
4) Slow lever pull downwards, hold 7s, up until no more resistance from the spring, down again, hold 7s, up until no more resistance, down again, hold 3-5s, up until ~.5oz in the cup

Frequently there is water on the top of the puck when I remove the portafilter from the grouphead. Used grounds pretty much never come out as a single unit, but rather as two layers. During extraction, I almost never see mousetails but rather drips that tend to favor one side or the other (usually the near spout of the portafilter). I do not have a naked pf so can't properly assess if this is channeling or just poorly made spouts.

My shots come out all over the place -- usually too bitter, sometimes too sour, rarely with much sweetness. I've had other beans come out good, even great, at 18g of beans and maybe .2oz(!) in the cup.

I am admittedly pretty picky w/ my shots but I can go whole bags of beans w/o getting properly dialed in. I've had the machine for 2mo and have yet to see its fabled forgiving nature. Indeed, I'm not sure if I am even near the right initial grind/dose setting. Any advice in how I can diagnose?

ds
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#2: Post by ds »

You are using way too much coffee for Ponte. Go to 14g dose and look into doing two lever pulls instead of one. See:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPOfyeb2Bcw

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beer&mathematics
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#3: Post by beer&mathematics »

How light is Ritual coffee roasted?
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day
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#4: Post by day »

Sound like overdosing, but I would also add poor distribution technique. In addition, 1.2 bar sounds really high from experience with my Pavoni, I like .6-.8 on my gear.

On the technique, it sounds like the slapshot technique or some variation of? If you are hitting them to settle them below the rim it is important that they are level. I was originally using the full blown slapshot and and diagnosed my problem as not actually hitting perfectly flat everytime. If you have the portafilter canted slightly back or forward when you hit, even just a little, or if the surface you are hitting is not perfectly level, then it seemed to cause the grinds to compress off level and the water to always flow off to the side-generally toward the handle in my experience. I could be wrong, but that was what I concluded. Perhaps you can find a way to resolve that, but it would probably need a special surface to slap against that would force the portafilter to be level when making contact, no easy feat imo. (I am NOT referring to a gentle tap on the side of forks mid way through the grind btw)

In addition, the single most likely cause of the flow being off center has got to be unlevel tamp. Check your counter and gear with a level and see if it is truly level in your application.

IMO, first step is to reduce dose, maybe pressure, and find a way to keep it level I guess... I couldnt, and so found my own technique that was based on the same principle as the slapshot.
Yes, i you per this on an iPhone

epurc (original poster)
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#5: Post by epurc (original poster) »

interesting. I have explicitly heard that PVLs do well with overdosing, which is why I was going so heavy. I've also not had much luck when i try to go down to 17g or 16g, and my only good shots have been .25-.5 oz of very dense coffee from a 18g dosage. So I had figured that 14 wouldn't fix it either. (I am also trying to get big bright shots as opposed to more Italian-style, hence the American-style overdosing.) I will try at a much lighter dose though as my first step tomorrow morning.

I also am not sure how best to make sure the puck is level -- it seems like tapping on the spouts would be the best way to attain that honestly. What semi-slapshot technique did you end up with?

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grog
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#6: Post by grog »

I have a Sama Export, so same group (but no thermosyphon). I have found that updosing is a must in order to avoid channeling. If I dose 14g, the extractions are a mess and the puck is heavily divoted afterwards, although always dry.

I think your dose might be a tiny bit high - I do 17g - but a more likely suspect is dialing in your grind. Stay at your current dose, grind fine enough to choke, and then start grinding slightly coarser until you hit the sweet spot.

That's what worked for me, anyway. Your routine for pulling the shot sounds similar to what others have noted.
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ds
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#7: Post by ds »

You should also try WDT. Deep baskets like in Ponte are harder to distribute evenly for some reason and WDT really helps a lot.

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yakster
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#8: Post by yakster »

Hi Epurc, I have a La Peppina spring lever with a 45 mm basket, my first of three lever espresso machines, and I use a Baratza Vario grinder, so I'll be answering with that perspective in mind.
epurc wrote:I recently purchased a Lusso that I am using with my Vario and have had trouble getting a reasonable shot out of. Psat is at 1.2. My general technique is as follows:

1) Weigh out 17.5-18g of beans (most recently Ritual Sweet Tooth Hunapu Bourbon)
2) Grind directly into portafilter w/ OE funnel, tap until grounds are completely in portafilter, tamp directly down (with variable strength)
3) Attach portafilter
4) Slow lever pull downwards, hold 7s, up until no more resistance from the spring, down again, hold 7s, up until no more resistance, down again, hold 3-5s, up until ~.5oz in the cup
1) I normally use 13.5 - 14 grams of coffee in my basket, but when I was intentionally trying to get thick shots I successfully dosed as high as 19.5 grams using a Ritual Sweet Tooth several years ago, so high doses with dense beans are not unheard of. I had to help the lever with doses this high. What kind of headspace do you have after tamping?
2) Sounds pretty similar to my technique, but I do a pretty light finger tamp after nutating the little La Peppina tamper around the basket, but this is with much smaller doses. You could give nutation a try.
4) You seem to be waiting to pull for quite a bit longer than I do. It looks like about 20 seconds. What I'll do is pull the lever down and wait maybe a second, if that, bring it up gently until I feel it catch against the back pressure of the water in the group against the puck, pull down again and hold for 10 seconds before letting it go. Sometimes I do a couple of these partial pumps. I found 10 seconds worked well for me and for singles 5 seconds with no partial pumps otherwise the coffee tasted overextracted.
epurc wrote:Frequently there is water on the top of the puck when I remove the portafilter from the grouphead. Used grounds pretty much never come out as a single unit, but rather as two layers. During extraction, I almost never see mousetails but rather drips that tend to favor one side or the other (usually the near spout of the portafilter). I do not have a naked pf so can't properly assess if this is channeling or just poorly made spouts.

My shots come out all over the place -- usually too bitter, sometimes too sour, rarely with much sweetness. I've had other beans come out good, even great, at 18g of beans and maybe .2oz(!) in the cup.

I am admittedly pretty picky w/ my shots but I can go whole bags of beans w/o getting properly dialed in. I've had the machine for 2mo and have yet to see its fabled forgiving nature. Indeed, I'm not sure if I am even near the right initial grind/dose setting. Any advice in how I can diagnose?
You can grind coarser to minimize the water on top of the puck, but it may be unavoidable since there's no three-way valve to evacuate the water that's left behind. I wouldn't worry too much about it. If the crema is thin, I'd try coarsening up the grind. The size of your shots makes me think you might be grinding a bit tight as well, with the partial pumps and all the pre-infusion time you should have plenty of water in the group for your shot, though I think some Lusso owners may pull the lever down midway through the shot's extraction for more volume, the La Peppina has a pretty high volume of water expelled with one fully cocked throw of the lever.

Good luck!
-Chris

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peacecup
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#9: Post by peacecup »

I use 17-18g in the double basket and 2-3 pulls, following a routine similar to what you describe. The shots usually weigh around 30g, so that's 30 ml - could vary a bit 25-35 say, and up to 40 ml. I usually use an Italian espresso blend, but get consistent results (even extractions) with other blends as well. I've had a tougher time getting good flavors with very light roasts, but maybe I just don't like them very much.

The pressure at 1.2 is high for my tastes, mine cycles between 0.8-0.9.

I use hand grinders exclusively, and these are totally clump and static-free, so distribution is very even and consistent. I would look at distribution first I guess. Also, try some of the classic comfort blends, like Stumptown's espresso - that tasted close to my Italian blends last time I tried it.

I've never gotten consistent results down-dosing with these machines, but others do.

Let us know how it goes.

PC
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epurc (original poster)
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#10: Post by epurc (original poster) »

Thanks everyone for the replies! I am digging in and will respond when I have tried more of the above :)

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