Spring lever manual force needed

by **IMAWriter** on Sat May 30, 2009 11:02 pm

As I've never used a spring lever, I'm wondering (versus a manual lever) the strength needed to initiate the pull on a spring lever...that is, the downward pull before releasing the lever for it's spring assisted journey back up.
Would the force needed be equal to, less than or the same as the force downward I use with my Cremina?
TIA

by **orphanespresso** on Sun May 31, 2009 1:47 am

I have heard tell that some folks use enough force on a manual lever to tear a rotator cuff, blow an elbow, or break wind, if not all 3. If we knew how much force you use, then a comparison could be made, possibly. We have a friend who when selling something on ebay never measured it but always said it was exactly the same size as on the screen....minor detail it was only his screen that he was viewing.

But from having used about a dozen different spring levers and a Cremina, I would say that the force required to pull the lever down on a spring is far less than is used on a manual lever....particularly if you have a Conti with all of the rollers and force multipliers in the group. A commercial lever is much longer as well and can be used with either arm also as it is just the pull and release, and it has a stop at the bottom where it stays until you release it so it does not need to be held down (like with a PV or Elektra for example).
Commercial lever, RJ? Beats pushing a button, but that is just an opinion.

by **Bluecold** on Sun May 31, 2009 5:50 am

I think spring levers 'feel' easier, but offer the same resistance. The difference is that with a spring, you can pull it down in your own tempo (2 secs max)., while with a direct-connect you need to pull down for 25 secs.

by **hperry** on Sun May 31, 2009 8:49 am

IMAWriter wrote:As I've never used a spring lever, I'm wondering (versus a manual lever) the strength needed to initiate the pull on a spring lever...that is, the downward pull before releasing the lever for it's spring assisted journey back up.
Would the force needed be equal to, less than or the same as the force downward I use with my Cremina?
TIA

In my opinion most of those using manual levers are exceeding the force that the machines were designed to use. Even with the lighter touch I have used with the Caravel and the Cremina both the Peppina (home) and the Termazona (commercial spring) use much less force than the hand levers and over a much smaller period of time.

by **espressme** on Sun May 31, 2009 12:29 pm

I agree with Hal. I find that with the proper grind for the Cremina and LaPav I am putting just slightly over the weight of my arm onto the lever. That is probably about 20-30#. So there is no reason to abuse yourself or your machine by giving the lever a 40-60 pound pressure. The big Conti spring lever takes about 35# to break tension but then that lowers with the lever in motion. The difference, I think, being that the Conti has a larger piston to push.
Time for a Yerhg!
-Richard

by **timo888** on Sun May 31, 2009 2:25 pm

The force required to pull down a manual lever varies, depending upon dose | grind | tamp. But a domestic spring lever and a manual spring lever are roughly comparable in terms of arm muscle. However, the spring lever requires the barista to have much greater intelligence and good looks than a manual lever requires.

by **IMAWriter** on Sun May 31, 2009 2:44 pm

timo888 wrote:
[snipped]
However, the spring lever requires the barista to have much greater intelligence and good looks than a manual lever requires.

hahahahahaha
Timo, FYI I have an honorary Doctorate from an elementary school, pal. :evil:

OK, in answer to an above question regarding force, I believe I'm around 35#'s, and if I try a 1/4 pull "Fellini" thing, the lever will get stuck when I re-raise then attempt to lower the lever, unless I grind to salt consistency. This occurs with both the Vario and manual grinder.
I tamp (mostly) at 15#'s. No squirts, 30 second pulls for 1.5oz, etc.
And YES, I had a PREVIOUSLY injured rotator cuff, which usually occurs with folks who get off their butt and exercise once in a while, DOUG, instead of laying around drinking copious amounts of espresso all day. :mrgreen:

But I mean that in a good way.

by **timo888** on Sun May 31, 2009 3:02 pm

Sounds as though you tend to overdose and pull ristretto.

by **IMAWriter** on Sun May 31, 2009 3:24 pm

timo888 wrote:Sounds as though you tend to overdose and pull ristretto.

Timo, if 1.5oz from a Cremina with a 13.5 to 14 gram load at 30 seconds(including a 6 second hold at the top) qualifies as a ristretto, so be it! BTW, there is still a 2mm clearance between the top of my dry puck and the lip of the basket.
I always thought my 9 gram in a single basket .75oz pulls were ristretto pours, based on coffee amount, versus liquid produced. Truthfully, I'm not quite sure what constitutes a "strict" ristretto pour, if there is such a thing.

by **michaelbenis** on Sun May 31, 2009 5:00 pm

Rob are you saying it chokes after your 1/4 pull?

I've just had a very nice Italian party day, so there's plenty of Prosecco to account for, but I'm not sure what you mean gets stuck.

I find the force required to lower the Elektra MCaL not vastly different from the manuals, though I;ve never really thought about it much...

Cheers

Mike

by **timo888** on Sun May 31, 2009 5:21 pm

IMAWriter wrote:Timo, if 1.5oz from a Cremina with a 13.5 to 14 gram load at 30 seconds(including a 6 second hold at the top) qualifies as a ristretto, so be it! BTW, there is still a 2mm clearance between the top of my dry puck and the lip of the basket.
I always thought my 9 gram in a single basket .75oz pulls were ristretto pours, based on coffee amount, versus liquid produced. Truthfully, I'm not quite sure what constitutes a "strict" ristretto pour, if there is such a thing.

IMAWriter wrote:if I try a 1/4 pull "Fellini" thing, the lever will get stuck when I re-raise then attempt to lower the lever, unless I grind to salt consistency

Pull according to your tastes, of course, but if your extraction stalls after the preinfusion, that's typically the result of several grams overdose, though this can happen if you grind finely, tamp with force, and updose by only a couple of grams, especially if you pull with too much force: excessive brew pressure can stall the flow.

This is where micro-adjustment on the grind really pays off.

P.S. Going by volume can be misleading.

by **IMAWriter** on Sun May 31, 2009 7:25 pm

timo888 wrote:Pull according to your tastes, of course, but if your extraction stalls after the preinfusion, that's typically the result of several grams overdose, though this can happen if you grind finely, tamp with force, and updose by only a couple of grams, especially if you pull with too much force: excessive brew pressure can stall the flow.

This is where micro-adjustment on the grind really pays off.

P.S. Going by volume can be misleading.

Gotcha

by **IMAWriter** on Sun May 31, 2009 7:28 pm

michaelbenis wrote:Rob are you saying it chokes after your 1/4 pull?

Cheers

Mike

Yes. My grinder is actually sugar, maybe a touch coarser. The Vario has done a very nice job.
I keep a clean grinder, and a VERY clean Cremina, removing the screen every 2 weeks or 1000 shots, whatever comes first. :lol:

Gently clean the area where the piston resides, the piston head, and lightly lube with Dow 111.
Doug would attest to my fastidious nature.

EDIT
Yikes...I meant my "grind" feels like sugar, only a touch coarser.

by **michaelbenis** on Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:02 am

I think Timo's hit the nail on the head there. I'd try grinding finer and dosing lower, though I have no experience whatsoever on the Cremina 67 and have heard it is more tolerant of up-dosing than the machines I am familiar with.

Cheers

Mike

by **orphanespresso** on Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:48 am

I agree with Timo, (since everyone else is agreeing with Timo), but I second the notion of the intelligence and good looks associated with spring levers, or their users.....

Since the spring lever force is constant, the result springs fully from the control of the basket prep and finding that sweet spot combination of grind tamp and dose to make it all come out right. With the spring there is no wiggle room in the pull pressure to "save" the shot and when you lock in the pf the die is cast. With the same beans, same grind, same tamp, and slight dosing changes the shot is completely different as far as crema and even taste profiles. The spring does really force one to think and for some of us the good looking part just comes naturally.

by **Bluecold** on Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:14 am

With coupled spring levers (MiniGaggia, Peppina, others) the die is not quite totally cast since you can help the lever upwards if you've ground too fine. Or slow it done if you've ground too coarse. They are specifically designed for the semi-intelligent people.

* the lever connects both up and down. I follow peacecup's naming convention.

by **peacecup** on Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:27 am

With the spring there is no wiggle room in the pull pressure to "save" the shot and when you lock in the pf the die is cast.

This is actually less true than I once thought. After developing my pre-infusion pulls on the spring lever to mimic those I'd been working on with the Caravel, I discovered that if the lever stalls on the first pull, a second, third, forth, etc. will slowly allow preinfusion to saturate the puck, and flow will begin. THEN I pull the shot. Not quite within the bounds of the 30-sec rule, but I had tossed that out a year or two ago anyway.

by **timo888** on Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:08 am

... Cremina 67 ... heard it is more tolerant of up-dosing ...

Much depends on the basket, especially with the single. I had two different single basket shapes, one with a narrower taller \_/ and the other with a broader shallower \__/. The narrow one had a smaller egress (i.e. fewer holes) than the broader one, in addition to allowing for a taller column of coffee. Identical dose and grind would result in very different shot profiles, with the narrower one tending to stall with a dose|grind that would result in a shot only slightly tighter than normale on the broader one.

by **IMAWriter** on Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:06 pm

orphanespresso wrote: but I second the notion of the intelligence and good looks associated with spring levers, or their users.....

and for some of us the good looking part just comes naturally.

I think I'm going to be sick :mrgreen:

by **IMAWriter** on Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:07 pm

Bluecold wrote:With coupled spring levers (MiniGaggia, Peppina, others) the die is not quite totally cast since you can help the lever upwards if you've ground too fine. Or slow it done if you've ground too coarse. They are specifically designed for the semi-intelligent people.

I'll take a dozen of each. :lol:


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