Size difference between La Pavoni Europiccola and Elektra Microcasa single baskets?

A haven dedicated to manual espresso machine aficionados.
vze26m98
Posts: 264
Joined: 10 years ago

#1: Post by vze26m98 »

Greetings everyone-

I recently purchased both single and double portafilter baskets for a Pavoni pre-millenium and a Microcasa Elektra, that is: 49mm baskets. Got the Pavonis on eBay and the Elektras from a retailer.

I'd read here about the size differences, and there certainly is a noticeable difference in the double baskets. I'd also read that the single baskets were of different sizes, but can't seem to detect much:


(Pavoni on the left, marked with a "P," Elektra on the right.)

Obviously, there are differences in the lip, number of holes and some tiny differences in size, but to my thinking not enough to make a difference in my espresso.

So, what's going on here? Did I misread the post? Do I not have either a true Pavoni or Elektra single basket?

Thanks much for any enlightenment!

Charles

vze26m98 (original poster)
Posts: 264
Joined: 10 years ago

#2: Post by vze26m98 (original poster) »

With that copious holiday free time, I tracked down the post that sparked this question, from Ray Johns back in October of 2011, as part of this thread:

La Pavoni Pro in the hands of pros
RayJohns wrote:But the real surprise was how much of an improvement the single shot basket made on the espresso. I don't know if it's because it's matched better to the ~ 30 ml size of the group head or what, but it seems like pulling shots with 8 grams of coffee in the single shot (i.e. the necked down) basket produces just a fantastic shot (compared to the normal 12 gram basket that my machine came with). I also have the double shot basket (which holds 14 grams no problem), but so far not a lot of luck dialing that in.

For anyone learning on a La Pavoni, I definitely recommend the naked portafilter mod and also investing a few bucks into an Elektra single shot portafilter basket.
With all due respects to Ray, there is something confusing about the post, but the single basket reference isn't a typo. And the responses to his comment don't ask for any clarification.

Perhaps I should just PM Ray and ask him what he meant by his comment.

. . .

On a related issue, although maybe deserving of a separate thread, I've had issues with the way the Pavoni baskets sit in a Richard Penney bottomless portafilter. They tilt on the horizontal axis:



(Pavoni basket on the left, Microcasa basket on the right)

My first pull on my Pavoni was quite a comic scene, as I'd used the Pavoni basket, and with a hot machine and the lever up to engage the portafilter, I couldn't get it to turn and lock. I eventually succeeded without burning myself, but the basket was fairly well stuck in the portafilter.

From what I can tell, it seems to be a size issue with the diameter of the Pavoni basket in relation to the Penney portafilter. The Pavoni basket has angled sides, and the diameter near the top of the basket is a bit too tight for the Penney portafilter. Coupled with the deeper (ie "thicker") arc of the basket lip, you can't really get the portafilter to seat on the Pavoni grouphead.

The Microcasa baskets don't have this issue, although in taking the photo above, I noticed there's a slight tip in the horizontal axis there as well. It's something you don't see in a side view of the basket/portfilter combination. I'll have to explore further to determine why this happens.

[Edit: Another examination suggests that as a stamped piece of metal, the Pavoni basket's lip isn't parallel with its bottom in the horizontal plane. So if the basket's lip is flat with the lip of the portafilter, the basket is at an angle, and has a larger than normal diameter because it actually is forming an ellipse in relation to the portafilter. Haven't figured out how to measure this yet.]

Best, Charles

User avatar
RayJohns
Posts: 824
Joined: 14 years ago

#3: Post by RayJohns »

vze26m98 wrote:With that copious holiday free time, I tracked down the post that sparked this question, from Ray Johns back in October of 2011, as part of this thread:

La Pavoni Pro in the hands of pros



With all due respects to Ray, there is something confusing about the post, but the single basket reference isn't a typo. And the responses to his comment don't ask for any clarification.

Perhaps I should just PM Ray and ask him what he meant by his comment.
It's funny you should PM me regarding this topic, because just last night I was thinking about this very issue again.

Most of the espresso I drink these days is from my Illy Francis Francis Y1.1 capsule machine, which uses the Illy iperespresso system. I used to scoff at capsule/pod machines, but I have to say, the Y1.1 produces some of the best, most consistent, smoothest espresso around. Only on rare occasions can I top it using the La Pavoni and the Vario ceramic burr grinder. And I will interject that DrGary was so right when he said the grinder makes a big difference. After using the Vario, I see what he means.

Anyway, so the other day we ran out of the Illy capsules. I was forced to drag out some old beans and fire up the La Pavoni after not having used it for maybe 6 months (outside of steaming milk). I've been grinding up all the beans in the house and pulling shots. This got me to thinking again about using the different size baskets. It also got me to thinking about the Illy and how it makes such great espresso using a capsule that has hardly any coffee inside it.

So you tell me? How is it that the Illy makes amazing espresso using around 6 grams of coffee? It still produces 30 ml of espresso (programmable of course). That certainly flies in the face of conventional wisdom, where people are using 15-20 grams of ground coffee to pull a single shot.

Some of the best shots I've had on the La Pavoni were using the single shot basket and about 8 grams of coffee. I feel that this - when pulling 30 ml of espresso - covers more the entire extraction and results in a more balanced espresso in the end. When I use the very large double shot basket, I have pulled the handle twice and also made very smooth espresso. On the other hand, when using 15 grams of coffee and only pulling a normal single (30 ml) shot, the flavors (to me) are way too intense and typically sourish or distasteful.

Here is a test everyone should perform at some point or another in their quest for learning about espresso. Take an ice cube tray and pull a 25-30 second shot of espresso. As you pull it, push the ice cube tray along under the stream and capture about 5 seconds of the stream in each of 6 individual ice cube holes. Then go back and notice the difference in color and flavor. Typically, in the first two spots (seconds 1-5 and 5-10 of the pull), the flavors are very intense. The 3 and 4th are more smooth and then the 5th and 6th are thinner. By tasting each one, you can quickly see why a lot of people cut their shots and/or dump the first couple of seconds of the pull.

So then ask yourself.. what's happening when you pull 1 oz of espresso off some huge amount of coffee? It's effectively shifting the spectrum of the shot forward (relative to using 7.5 grams of coffee for 30 ml of espresso). This being the case, it's effectively like only drinking the first 3 holes of espresso you find in the ice cube try - which if you do that experiment, are very intense and not very smooth on the mouth.

Of course it also has to do with extraction and the size of the coffee and many other factors that need to be dialed in. Flow rate, temperature, etc, etc. I rarely am able to gain that much control using the La Pavoni (even with the PID controller). But also, I've noticed, using the narrow neck of the single basket seems to help combat channeling and seems to help produce a more thorough extraction. When using the larger baskets, it seems there is more opportunity for channeling or lopsided extraction in the puck, which I'm sure is having a dramatic impact as well.

Anyway, the bottom line is that I've had good luck with the single shot basket, although I think if it was able to hold 1 additional gram of coffee, that might be absolutely ideal for the La Pavoni machine.

At the end of the day, all you can do is fiddle around with pulling shots until you find something you like. But if you put me and DrGary in the same room, I'm willing to bet that he would not like the espresso I like, nor vise versa. I like very smooth mild shots, while Gary errs more on the side of very bold, intense thick/rich shots. Neither are wrong, it's just like blondes vs. brunettes :-)

Ray

User avatar
drgary
Team HB
Posts: 14348
Joined: 14 years ago

#4: Post by drgary »

Hi Ray:

Yes, when we were in the same room we had different tastes for espresso for sure.

Just two days ago Joel Elias and I picked up our new North TJ-067 roasters and after we heaved mine onto its cart I treated him to lunch and some espresso shots. My technique has advanced a lot since Ray visited as I continue to do iterations of Jim Shulman's instructions on dialing in espresso by taste. This has allowed me to start doing this fairly readily, especially with my Cremina that's equipped with a group thermometer. I was able to pull three successive shots with different coffees and roast levels and concentrated the sweetness of the shot in the first part of the pull so it was syrupy and flavorful instead of sour or bitter. So much of what makes that possible for me is temperature measurement at the group, and the La Pavoni is so similar to a Cremina it works on both machines. Others achieve their temperature regulation with a very consistent and practiced shot pulling technique.

There is something to be said for lower brew ratio espresso, as long as you're not overextracting. Ray's suggestion of pulling portions of a shot into an ice tray isn't new but it's a nice way to separate out what you're extracting during the course of a pull.

I'm told that Italians frequently pull singles and use smaller amounts of coffee. The advantage of this is you can sample small amounts of coffee throughout the day without getting too buzzed on the caffeine. The La Pavoni lever is perfectly capable of this, whether Elektra or their brand of single basket. I would concentrate on the taste and mouthfeel you like and if you're getting small quantity there are advantages to that.
Gary
LMWDP#308

What I WOULD do for a good cup of coffee!

vze26m98 (original poster)
Posts: 264
Joined: 10 years ago

#5: Post by vze26m98 (original poster) »

Hi Ray-

Thanks so much for your response. I hardly expected a discussion of capsule espresso systems, but found it quite interesting. I think we (and the forum) gain from these kind of outlying perspectives, and perhaps others will turn their attention to what these machines can tell us about coffee.

My original question was pretty pedestrian, and I think I can offer an answer, which you might confirm or correct.
RayJohns wrote:(compared to the normal 12 gram basket that my machine came with)
I'm guessing you should have said "double 12 gram basket" here. Did your Pavoni come with only one basket (a double?) and hence seen by you as the "normal" basket?

Happy New Year!

Charles

ScottCarney
Posts: 16
Joined: 10 years ago

#6: Post by ScottCarney »

So I hope this thread is still alive. It's great to see frequent posters Dr Gary and Ray on here. Thanks to Charles for sparking an interesting discussion.

I've been experimenting with the the Europiccola for less than a week now and run a few pounds of beans through. I had read lots of stuff about the need for a deeper double basket or even a triple in a bottomless....

For me, the basic idea that the double is a different coffee than the single has been strongly reinforced. The LP single basket, as can be seen on these posts, has an entirely different shape that the double. That alone changes the flow and the development of the shot. (I love the ice cube tray idea... will try later). I've tried running 8-9 grams of beans through the double basket and that is quite different from the same 8-9 grams run through the single basket. The "short double" does tend to come out like a small version of the regular double. The genuine single is a different beast. So- it's just different. I think the unperforated, curved sides of the single provide a place for back-pressure to lift the puck and run a watery shot if one tries to force it. The single rewards a patient pull. It might be interesting to have a flat-bottom (like the LP double) with a short profile and see how that performs.

Pods are an entirely different geometry again and I don't think one can expect to draw too many lessons from one basket geometry to the other.

I've also noticed that the scaling is not linear. 8-9 grams yields a good 1-oz shot, but a 2 oz shot seems to only need 13 oz. Of course on the LPE the nature of the pull changes dramatically from single to double with huge variations depending on whether one does full pulls, half pulls, the Fellini method, etc.

Anyway, in my attempt to answer the question of whether a single or a double is ideal I've instead realized that there is for me a best single and a best double and that they are different drinks, not scaled versions of the same drink.

User avatar
rpavlis
Posts: 1799
Joined: 12 years ago

#7: Post by rpavlis »

Another important point has been posted several times before--but there are at least two very different 49mm La Pavoni portafilters that were supplied with the 1974-2000 group. They are interchangeable but VERY different. One type has M10 threads, the other M12. I think they changed sometime in the 1980s? The M10 thread ones are far too short to hold Elektra double baskets. Most? of the ones with M12 will take the Elektra ones permitting at least 16 grams of ground coffee.

I do not like the idea of chopping La Pavoni Portafilters because you cannot see the espresso coming out when you are pushing down on the handle, and the higher heat capacity of the standard set up can be used to advantage to help control temperature. However, you can chop one of the older ones and put Elektra baskets on it that way.

One really needs to have working singles and doubles baskets.

mathof
Posts: 1474
Joined: 13 years ago

#8: Post by mathof »

RayJohns wrote: Anyway, the bottom line is that I've had good luck with the single shot basket, although I think if it was able to hold 1 additional gram of coffee, that might be absolutely ideal for the La Pavoni machine.
The Elektra Microcasa single basket is a bit larger than the La Pavoni single and probably holds about 1 gram more. I never use single baskets but one of these days I'll give them a fair try.

Matt