TUS172 wrote:The bottom line is that for around $200.00 you can get a good used La Pavoni on EBay. Just be careful, ask questions, use PayPal and go with a seller that has a good rep...

Can't stress this enough. I got mine for $200. It was 20 years old and had virtually no signs of wear and tear except minor scaling. A quick teardown and it was clean as new and pulls great shots. By far the best machine you can buy in terms of the quality/price ratio. It blows everything else I have seen out of the water. Mostly because while it's a little inconsistent, there is nothing even close to it in price range. You can get some nasty ones on eBay, too. A friend of mine has one (and it wasn't a surprise when he bought it). You really just need patience.

shadowfax wrote:You really just need patience.

I get the impression you need this when you want to buy a good one, and next when you have the coffee ritual.
The fact that so many machines are in the second hand market could be an indication that many people who bought these things as nice looking gimmicks did not have the patience to develop the ritual. Weren't aware of limitations.
Then their machine ended up in the attic/garage (little scaling, as new, ...).
This also means, if you buy a new one, depreciation is extreme.

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

Thanks for your replies.

I've read a lot, but I can't make a decision. The lever machines are beautiful but they seem strange in the world of espresso lovers. They aren't used at barista competitions as far as I know.

You guys talk a lot about milk drinks. I don't drink them very often, at most one cappuccino a week. I love espresso so much that i'd rather make two in the morning instead of preparing a cappuccino.
So milk drinks isn't the point, if i'm able to make good espresso i'd be very happy.

But my major concerns are the temperature stability (is there a possibility to use PID or something), the strangeness in baristaworld and things like the little portafilter which is odd as well in the world of E61.

The "normal" machines however provide a nice E61 grouphead, fairly easy temperature control and old 58mm baskets. It's just that lever machines,especially la pavoni, are so new to me. Many people here own a lever machine and a normal machine, but that is not an option for me!

I hope for more replies so I can decide.

Right at this time, there are 13 La Pavoni's on Marktplaats. Most of them will go for less than €200 (or even €150) and seem to be in good shape, refurbished, or even new.
Why don't you buy one of them, and decide after three months or so if you are a "Leverman"? If not, just sell it again for (almost) the same price...

Spironski wrote:Right at this time, there are 13 La Pavoni's on Marktplaats. Most of them will go for less than €200 (or even €150) and seem to be in good shape, refurbished, or even new.
Why don't you buy one of them, and decide after three months or so if you are a "Leverman"? If not, just sell it again for (almost) the same price...

Agreed... PIDing a lever is a bit extreme but has been done... Look up Starry's posts on what he did . It is very involved. But PIDing a machine is not that essential and if you are doing only 2 in the morning it is not an issue at all. Perhaps you are over thinking this one... Jump in and get the experience.

Eric,

Check the La Pavoni vs. Elektra thread. Two fundamentally different lever machines, however both the simplest you can get. La Pavoni uses steam pressure to fill the cylinder under the lever operated piston after which you, the barista, deliver the lever-actuated pressure on piston/water to press the water through the grinds. Idle position: lever down. Eureka has a spring loaded piston where the barisa raises the piston with the lever (water flows into the cylinder) and the spring pushes the piston/water down again. Idle position: lever up.
Large commercial lever machines have been a long tradition and you will find them through Italy, with Napoli (Naples) being sort of famous for it. Be aware going to the South, coffee taste profile changes from lighter roast (Illy, Lavazza) in the North to darker in the South (so you would not blame the lever).
If/when you are in Amsterdam, go to "De Koffiesalon" in the Utrechtsestraat (tram line 4, exit Prinsengracht, towards Frederiksplein on your right hand side). They have a Kees van der Westen machine, Idrocompresso, with three lever groups (cf. Eureka). Here, gravity fills the cylinder from the boiler, I believe. That machine is on a PID, btw. Kees also does an E/61 pump version of this machine which you can taste just next to Leidseplein (tram line 1 and 2, or a line from near Frederiksplein that follows Weteringcircuit - ask directions) in Palladium restaurant (just go there, sit at the bar and order caffè). Experiences in De Koffiesalon not really consistent, yet always a 7.5 or more. Palladium was excellent (9~10). They use the same coffee I use at home: Roman espresso bar style from either Palombini (Gran Bar) or Buscaglione (Euro Bar).

Matthijs' (Spironski) advice really makes sense. Unless you are afraid you lose too much if you want to sell again after a few months. So many of these machines being for sale second hand, to me is an indication many people, probably before the internet, bought these expensive coffee gimmicks, did not bother to learn/discover the ritual and put them in the attic. Now they bought senseless pad machines and are clearing the attic.
In the NL you are not likely to find a 2nd hand Eureka a leva, I guess.

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

I had an enjoyed a Zaffiro for three years, this following many years with Rancilio Audrey and Gaggia Coffee Classic. When I bought my Ponte Vecchio Lusso, I thought it would be a nice complement to my Zaffiro. After a year of owning both machines I realized I had only use the Zaffiro about three times during that period—I simply love the PV Lusso. So I sold the Zaffiro, and am most happy with my lever Lusso.

Just to chime in here, to the original should I buy a lever question....the simple answer is yes, yes, yes!!!! We are dedicated leverheads and it took just one lever to do it....a La Peppina, with no overheating problems due to the open boiler, and are now nutz over our Caravel. We have an Oly, Microcimabali, rivieras both manual and spring piston, La Pavoni euroPic et al and find more enjoyment with these than the HX's of our past. We originally felt that we were "trading down" from our Giotto but were actually trading up in the quality, if not the absolute joy of lever espresso. Sometimes the small home levers get shuttled off to toyland in the opinion of the heavy hardware folks, bless 'em all, but they are serious little machines that make some serious espresso. And the Faema Faemina, from my cold dead hand......
Doug and Barb

you guys convinced me, now I'm in the possession of a La Pavoni Professional Lusso and a nice RB-Tamper (200 euros altogether).

Congrats! Keep us posted on your learnings and advancements. It is good to know that you are back-upped by a fantastic forum here.