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Rancilio Z9 Two Group Lever Machine

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Link to "Rancilio Z9 Two Group Lever Machine"by phillip canuck on Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:19 pm

I ran into a deal that I couldn't pass up, this Rancilio, below. It was used for 5 years in a cafe up until about a year ago when the cafe went out of business. I've searched all over, but most of the posts are old or not quite what I'm looking for. I'm quite sure that the wiring has been reconfigured from 220V to 115V at 15 amp - from the small mess that is back there. The plug, below, also has stamped on the yellow part, 115V 15 A. There is water in the boiler, so I plugged it in just to see what would happen (a bit reckless); a click here and there, and then shortly after there is a sound of water trying to be sucked through the water fitting (not hooked up). Any words of advice before I go further with this? Is there a way I can supply water without it being plumbed to a waterline - a bucket for now? A bit lost, but excited.

-phillip


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Link to "Rancilio Z9 Two Group Lever Machine"by Paul on Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:24 pm

cool machine. I like the z9's.

Unlike rotary pump machines, big levers need to be plumbed in. Water pressure needs to be more than boiler pressure (say, 2 bar min feed). You can use a little pump (flojet, shurflow etc) to achieve this if you wish to draw from a water container. Such pumps are used in caravan installations. Try hunting around these for a good deal.

I've got an idea that either rancilio or pavoni used to sell a little foot operated pump. Long ago though. I haven't seen one.
cheers
Paul

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Link to "Rancilio Z9 Two Group Lever Machine"by erics on Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:31 pm

Unplug the machine, open her up, and disconnect the power leads to the pump. This machine must have a pump from your description? Remove some easily accessible fitting from the boiler and manually fill it a little over half-way using the sight glass. Or, forget that and rig up a temporary tank for the pump to take suction from.
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Link to "Rancilio Z9 Two Group Lever Machine"by Paul on Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:38 pm

i'd be interested to learn if someone had already fitted a pump into it. I had assumed that when it was turned on, the autofill solenoid opened and the machine perhaps gurgled a bit.
cheers
Paul

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Link to "Rancilio Z9 Two Group Lever Machine"by orphanespresso on Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:39 am

The Rancilio boiler diagram shows both the 220v and 115v models to be 2700 watt elements for the 2 group Z9. You can calculate watts =voltsxamps and get a theoretical load or use a meter to check. The element should be marked and then you can determine if it was just plug changed or the element was also changed....lots of stuff to figure out on a new to you machine. Since you have a washer sitting right next to your espresso machine stand it seems pretty direct to just plumb in from the washer line....most machines take a 3/8 compression stainless flexie line and plumb the machine in. Nice machine....great 70's orange!
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Link to "Rancilio Z9 Two Group Lever Machine"by phillip canuck on Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:36 am

Here are a couple of shots of the innards. I've got two black boxes in here (to me), but I'll take a guess: the one photo that says: GICAR Electronic Level Control, I'll assume this is my pump? I have a visual level indicator and an a manual fill lever - I guess in case this Gicar breaks - or is it after market? The other black box, ok, a blue box, seems to house temperature control?? This is just from looking at what runs in and out of it. Oh, on top of the boiler - that is a safety valve?? Seems so.

As for its current location on top of our dryer - just temporary. It will be housed in the kitchen, so I just plan on running a line from the sink connection using a Max Adaptor / John Guest. (suggestions otherwise, welcomed)

Finally, I assume that I should clean all that gunk around the lever (last photo)?

Any advice on what to do next would be greatly appreciated.

(OE: love the hand grinder I bought from you a couple of months ago)

-phillip

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Link to "Rancilio Z9 Two Group Lever Machine"by orphanespresso on Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:06 am

WOW!!! What a lot of fun you are going to have!!! You are diagnosing the system right so far. The Gicar is the autofill system and the blue box is the pstat.

Let's go back to the first question 220 with a 110 plug or 110 with a 110 plug. First do the math. Both the 220 and 110 element run at 2700 watts on the element. 2700=220(x). So on 220 the element would pull 12.25 amps current. That is the spec on the element. Plug the amps number in the other formulae to find the resistance of the 220v element, running on 220. V=iR, so this solves the resistance of the 2700 watt element at about 18 ohms. A multimeter can test the ohms of the element as it sits and if you read 18 ohms it is a 220 element with a 110 plug. You can solve the 110volt element equation the same way to find what the resistance on the 110 element would be. Lets say it is a 220v element running on 110, this means that the ohms will always be 18 but both the amps and wattage will decrease....slow to heat and slow to recover, but not a danger or anything.

Back to the machine....if the gicar system is working then you can either just clean it up and check all the contacts and terminals for safety and call it that. The gicar can easily be disabled, bypassed or removed entirely if it is an i$$ue since the manual fill system overrides the gicar and if you are paying even marginal attention to the water level it is highly unlikely that you would ever need the gicar, unless of course you enjoy the marvel of it kicking on unexpectedly. If you can't get the machine to take up water then the gicar could be faulty.

Most of the greening at the fittings is pretty normal for a machine like this as a sign of small seepage but there seems to be no sign of major leaks would show as white drools and striping from a fitting. The overpressure safety valve on top looks to be a retrofit from an older style big wobbler weight system which used the drain from the large pan on top. The pstat is like a sirai but with a metal cover and has the big sparking contacts inside, which may or may not be burned.achine turns on and off at pressure then it is working.
You can get water to it from about any source temporarily to check out all of the different parts of the machine, even a garden hose if you can figure out some fittings ....even with leaks you just need to get it filled up enough to see if the gicar will both turn on and shut off. Once you get the boiler full then it is reasonably safe to turn it on and see what happens. If all else fails and you want to fill the machine you can remove the top pressure safety valve and use the hole as a fill. there is also a drain plug somewhere of the boiler or on the sight glass lower housing to get the old water out when the time comes. BIG fun!
Of course you had to add the gross picture of the top of the group. Lots of cleaning and relubing here but all well within reason to undertake. Let us know if you need parts for the machine as we are putting together a big order from Spain for some of our restorations and can add your needs in with some other special bits for other machines in current crisis.
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Link to "Rancilio Z9 Two Group Lever Machine"by phillip canuck on Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:16 pm

Mr.Garrott,
There is a plate that says:

Volt 220/380
Hz 50/60 A 12/7

That seems to match your calculations. A newbie question: the heating element is inside the "triangle" - 2nd and 5th (best) photos?

Secondly, if it is 220V running on 110V - any idea on how slow is slow to heat? Will I be turning this on for an hour or two before it's good to go? If that's the case, how difficult is it to change back to 220V? (Okay, the difficult part is relative to expertise, which I have none). However, I am need to improve my electrical skills for another project, so they will improve through this project or another one on my hands (a sailboat).

Lastly, for now - am I crazy or is there no power switch? Seems somewhat reasonable that this is turned on/off by a wall mounted switch.

Oh, and one of the knobs is broken - it's the one in the foreground, above the steam wand, below RANCILIO - could something like that be bought in Spain? I don't know if the underlying mechanism of the knob is broken - need to turn it on for that - but I think it's okay.

Thank you,
phillip
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Link to "Rancilio Z9 Two Group Lever Machine"by phillip canuck on Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:21 pm

Is there no edit function after you've posted??

Regardless, I should clarify a question.. if the element is 220V and it's connected through a 110V plug - then that would be easy - change out the cord and plug to 220V. What I should have stated, is how difficult would it be to create a 220V outlet - to wire one from my circuit/breaker panel? What should I be looking for in the panel to see it it's remotely possible?

-phillip
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Link to "Rancilio Z9 Two Group Lever Machine"by orphanespresso on Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:12 am

It is likely best to consult an electrician over the circuit change.....the thing is, you can easily convert a regular 3 wire romex line (black white and green or bare ground wire) to 220 but the amperage rating of the 12 or 14 gauge romex is below that needed for a 220v circuit....most 220v circuits have a breaker rated at 40 amps (for a dryer or a kitchen range) and for our 220 line which we ran we used 8 gauge wire. That is the problem with changing a regular 110 circuit to 220, the wire you have in the wall.

Truly, fill it with water and see how long it takes to warm up, that seems the best way to begin. After all, the heating element may have been changed, there is no way of knowing, and the volt and watt ratings should be on the element somewhere...possibly on the rod itself, which is of course inside the machine, and if you run it on 220 if it is 110 element it will burn out due to the overamperage. I prefer the experimental approach as long as one can rule out the possibilities of disaster. Checking the resistence of the element with a meter will enable you to determine which element you have in the machine and proceed basking in this knowledge with confidence of not damaging yourself or the machine.
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Link to "Rancilio Z9 Two Group Lever Machine"by phillip canuck on Fri Dec 25, 2009 1:31 am

Well, I plugged it in.

Good news - in about 5 minutes the boiler was too hot to touch for more than a second.
Good news - the GICAR wanted to refill (not water to do so, but tank was still half full - according to the gauge, hope it works. There is only one valve in the back - definitely for water, but I'm not sure how to drain the water; though I can shut it off.

Bad news - After about 5 minutes the wires, below, began to smoke.

The wire that is still OEM (in my estimation, largely because some of it is tinned, and the rest of it is obviously a hack job - I just don't know to what end. For instance, what's with the "splice", below? I have no idea what they were trying to do here. I did, initially, try to get an impedance reading, but the corrosion gave me nothing I could believe in - I did see several spikes to 17.5 ohms.

The carnage was covered by black electrical tape - I have cut it all off. Looks like I need a new power cord.

At this point, I just want to rewire the poor connections, but I don't have a wiring diagram to do so. I suppose I could take the wires to be replaced to someone smarter to figure out the gauge.

Overall, I have to be pleased, the wiring is toast, but at least the boiler has heat and the GICAR seems to work.

-phillip

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Link to "Rancilio Z9 Two Group Lever Machine"by erics on Fri Dec 25, 2009 11:27 am

Here would be a start: http://www.rancilio.com/rancilio/download_page.jsp?flag=2&id_cat=24&id_subcat=103&id_language=3

You could always contact Rancilio and see if they would send you a wiring diagram. It seems as though you are getting in a little over your head :) with the wiring and maybe it would be a good idea to locate that long lost friend or perhaps a local espresso repair shop to, at least, give you some assistance.
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Link to "Rancilio Z9 Two Group Lever Machine"by orphanespresso on Fri Dec 25, 2009 4:25 pm

Nice link on the diagrams. Professional help may be in order, yes. That is unless you have an extreme moment of mental clarity about the wiring situation. There is a lot of information about basic wiring, wire gauges required, etc, but it looks like you could do a lot of cleanup of terminals and get rid of some bad wads of danger. If you were to address these wiring issues yourself I thin a good test of your capability to do this is, can you remove ALL the wires and start fresh and get it wired correctly?
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Link to "Rancilio Z9 Two Group Lever Machine"by phillip canuck on Fri Dec 25, 2009 11:54 pm

Thank you, Eric, for the diagram - I had come across that just shortly before your post; if only they had a wiring diagram! I will try Rancilio.

As for the wiring myself, Mr.Garrott, if I knew the gauges, then I wouldn't think twice about it. (Though, it shouldn't be that much work to figure out). Well, okay, maybe twice, but I have done a bit of soldering and have created a few circuits. However, much of what I've done has been in school labs, some time ago. For that matter, I have more than a couple of course credits in electricity and magnetism; I can talk a good talk about charges in different vicinities and derive equations all over my Maxwell, but it doesn't mean a damn when it comes time to grab a cutter and a crimper. I am, however, going to knock on a couple of doors to see if I can gain some assistance.

One other consideration: should I take her apart, give a great cleaning, lube, and refasten all the seals? Or is that something that is better left until it is needed?

-phillip
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Link to "Rancilio Z9 Two Group Lever Machine"by orphanespresso on Sat Dec 26, 2009 6:11 am

Sounds like you are gaining confidence as you go along here.....a good sign of future success.

I think your idea of general cleaning and troubleshooting the mechanicals a great idea. By all means clean it all up since you will feel much better having done that as it looks so shabby inside at present, from storage as much as anything.

My question of being able to take all the wires off and get it properly wired was not snarky, and I hope you did not misunderstand me, but in a way, understanding the electrical on a machine is simpler if there are no wires, just the control elements needing to be hooked together properly......and some great confusion has settled upon my mind when trying to duplicate a wiring "diagram" for a machine when the diagram makes no sense. (some of the La Pavoni Europiccolas are really backassward from my way of wiring and the diagrams just make one's head pound as they sometimes make no sense and in prectice call for the black wire to be directly attached to the white wire which causes the circuit breaker to go POP) You have on the machine basically 5 elements....switch, pstat,gicar autofill system. heating element, and indicator lights. So 4 plus some lights. The first node is the switch and the hot side of the power will go then to the pstat and the pstat is a second switch actually, and from there the current will go to the heating element, exit the heating element and return to the switch where the neutral wire is located and back out the cord (assuming a 110 circuit). The gicar has current applied all the time to the main box and the box supplies current to the electric valve for fill. There is also a sensor circuit on the gicar. So the gicar takes a hot lead from some point (the same wire as the pstat hot side) and returns the current circuit to again the neutral wire. It is wired so it gets its current on the switch side, between the swetch and the pstat. If you hae pilot lights that tell when the boiler is on the wires to the lights come from the heating element circuit and if the lights indicate the machine is on the wires come from the switch.

So you see, with no wires at all it may be a bit easier to envision the circuits and what they need to do than trying to sort out the mess in front of you. As long as you overengineer the wires for safe load (12-14 gauge for most and lets say 10 gauge for the boiler elements) you will likely be doing fine. The gauge of the wire is determined by the amound of current to be carried in the wire and just overengineer as the wires can never be too big, just too small.

Also, if you have a functioning manual fill the system gets even easier if you leave out the gicar completely, making the wiring a very simple circuit of switch to pstat to heating element to switch wired on the hot wire in and neutral wire out. I think that if you sit down with a piece of paper and draw your circuit...switch to pstat to element to switch and switch to gicar to valve to switch it will begin to become clearer and clearer to you how the circuit is layed out and what you need to do to safely wire the machine.

If you proceed and double check everyting you will end up with new wires, clean safe terminals and possibly a more streamlined circuit than originally on the machine. Use a GFI plug and you will be generally safe as long as you do a sanitary job in the wiring and the GFI will throw if there is a short somewhere in you calculations.
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Link to "Rancilio Z9 Two Group Lever Machine"by erics on Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:18 pm

It seems to me that you have three separate heating elements of ~53.8 ohms each connected in parallel giving a circuit resistance of ~17.9 ohms. There should be copper connecting tabs at the element's flange as you only have two leads going to the elements.

The "conversion" to 110-120 VAC from the nameplate data of 220 VAC should have included a change in both the Gicar box and the boiler fill solenoid - both of which should have some markings on them to indicate something. Operating these components at 110-120 vac vice 220 vac should not be too exciting but if the situation were reversed, I think you would momentarily see some sparks fly.

If it were me, I would do some detective work on the machine's components, remove the groupheads and ship them off to Orphan Espresso sans lever arm for an exam. Stepping back from what I said before about the wiring being "over your head", I believe you could have a good time there while your groups are being well taken care of.
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Link to "Rancilio Z9 Two Group Lever Machine"by phillip canuck on Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:43 pm

Gentlemen,
Thank you very much for these responses - it's good to know I'm not on my own. Yesterday, I sent an email off to a highly recommended repairman, his response is below. I gave him an overview of the situation, and sent him this link. His response is below. I've decided to take her apart and give her a good going over. As for the electrical components - there are only the power cord, and the pstat. There is no on/off switch and I won't bother with the gicar (I'll probably add the on/off). I'm looking forward to the investigation of the components, but first I need to setup an appropriate work station.
On shipping the groups to OE: the exploded diagram of parts does look a bit scary, is that why I should send them off to someone much more experienced? Are the tools as specialized as the knowledge?
I didn't have too much urgency on this overhaul, until a few hours ago; my faithful Pavoni Europiccola has taken ill. For some completely unknown reason, I cannot engage the II position on the rocker switch. It's almost as if a breaker has tripped and I can't reset it - but there is no breaker. I can heat in position I - but that took about 40 minutes. No thanks. When I set the rocker to "off" it still heats. I took the most rudimentary of looks, nothing obviously wrong. Later today or tomorrow I'll take a closer look. However, if you should happen to know the solution off the top of your head, feel free to pass it along.
Here is the response from the repairman. Respectful comments, if at all, on his pricing, please. I put down here in case there is some good hints for repair that one of you may be able to discern.

Thank you,
Phillip

I've done a few of these units, and for me to perform the wiring upgrade,testing, would entail 4-7 hrs labor@$90 hr,
Then add any needed parts, but assume the pstat,level control, water inlet valve, hitemp nickel wire, piston cup gaskets,etc/
I'm easily seeing this job total in the $600-$1,000 range.
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Link to "Rancilio Z9 Two Group Lever Machine"by orphanespresso on Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:10 am

Can't comment on the quote, well I could but how about "ZOUNDS!!!!!".

Saw your other post about the La Pav switch....sounds like a suddenly failed rocker switch, hope it's not the long kind.

As far as having the groups specifically send out to rebuild. A non fastidious person could simply change the seals without removing the spring, which is the hard part and what you need is a very big clamp and some area to do this in that you are confident nothing or nobody including yourself caould get damaged if the clamp slips and the spring flies out, etc....but then again there are various fairly safe jigs that you can make using scrap lumber and long bolts to much more safely compress the spring. That's about the only special tool you need. Takes a good bit of hand strength to get the seals on but overall if you have basic tools and the patience to make a jig for the spring compression it is not a complex job. The seals and gaskets are readily available so that's not a problem either. It's like a Europiccola but a lot bigger. A much more difficult area of the rebuild of a machine is stuck fittings and bolts, no matter the size of the machine, so it's a wash.

Experience is a very good teacher especially if you are paying attention during class, and you are in luck since you would have one group to learn on and an entire second group apply all of your newly learned lessons to!
I have a feeling that you are going to undertake this project yourself and feel damn good about it when you are done. All the best!
Doug
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Link to "Rancilio Z9 Two Group Lever Machine"by phillip canuck on Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:32 am

I've been making progress on this, and glad to see some others are making progress on their machines here on HB. I am assuming that the springs need replacing? Feel free to affirm. As for the heating element - it is copper as well? A photo, below, of the deposits built up in the boiler. I used a bath of lemon juice and hot water to clean many of the copper pipes, however, I think I'll look into the powder form when I tackle the boiler - perhaps more cost efficient? There are no gaskets at the boiler-plate joining - just fasteners; is that unusual?

-phillip
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Link to "Rancilio Z9 Two Group Lever Machine"by phillip canuck on Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:37 am

oops, hit the wrong button, here are the photos..

This is the worse of the two springs, but the other really isn't much better..

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