Ponte Vecchio/Sama users: how long are your pulls?

A haven dedicated to manual espresso machine aficionados.
pacificmanitou
Posts: 1302
Joined: 12 years ago

#1: Post by pacificmanitou »

Im wondering how long users typically run their shots, I usually do two pull, 16g ristrettos for 32 seconds, but lately Im experimenting with longer shots. What do others do?
LMWDP #366

User avatar
beer&mathematics
Posts: 1366
Joined: 11 years ago

#2: Post by beer&mathematics »

I never time my shots with the Export but I will for tomorrow's shots. Lately, I've been smitten with La Peppina since I find it easier to pull better shots.

As to the number of pulls, I don't really have that down. But at least 2 and sometimes up to 4. I'll time the shots and weigh them tomorrow.
LMWDP #431

User avatar
beer&mathematics
Posts: 1366
Joined: 11 years ago

#3: Post by beer&mathematics »

By the way, I've been thinking about how to pull on the PV/S group. This has been my usual routine before playing with la Peppina: Pull down and letting it quickly come back up with no resistance (and no beading on the basket--I have a bPF), then quickly pull it down again and wait 10 seconds. Then assisting the lever 1/2 way up until I let go. Then do one more pull with a 3-5 sec hold at the bottom and let it go. This ends up with a 1oz-1.2oz shot although I haven't been weighing my shots. I never times it but I recon the entire ordeal is 40-60 seconds. I wasn't happy with this method.

Today's shots I did something different: Pull down, wait 10 sec, assisted release 1/2 way up, pull down, 2-3 sec hold and assisted release 1/2 way up and let the spring finish the job. Didn't measure the volume but I did measure the weight of the shot at 20g, so it was 17g/20g.

Can't comment on taste since there many things out of whack in my routine right now: Pharos is out of whack, coffee I have is either old and frozen or fresh and extremely lightly roasted.
LMWDP #431

User avatar
peacecup
Posts: 3649
Joined: 19 years ago

#4: Post by peacecup »

I long ago threw out the timer (even before the dosing funnel!). I even wrote a thread about the 30 sec rule at that time. I posted a couple videos on this thread, using the Export:

Pulling shots with Ponte Vecchio and Sama lever espresso machines

That shot went from around 0:05 sec till 1:15, so around one minute 10 seconds total. With the Lusso one can slow down even more if desired, because of the superior heat sinking ability of the group.

The idea behind my technique is that I like to work with a dose of about 15-16g. With a dose this high, one pull results in too a high a brew ratio for my normal preference, around 100%, 15:15g. These certainly can taste good of course, but I usually want it a little lower. THEREFORE, I need a more than one pull. One must keep in mind that with every pull, the lever must be held in the down position for some number of seconds to cool the boiler water to an acceptable temperature. The warmer the group (and warmer the boiler) the longer this takes. I've settled on something around 5-10 seconds for each filling of the group, but I don't pay strict attention to this.

In that video I think the routine was: 1) a ten-sec preinfusion (0:05-0:15), 2) a half-pull (0:15-0:30), 3) another ten-sec cooling with the lever down (0:30-45), 4) the full pull lasting 0:45-1:10 or so.
With the Export it is important to follow a fairly rigid routine to get consistent results, because the group warms more rapidly during the shot. But in my experience one need not stress much over a few seconds here or there.

With the Lusso time becomes even less relevant and one can experiment further with different combinations of half or full pulls. The reason I think this is interesting is because of the varying pressure at the start and end of the pull. The Lusso allows one to more easily choose which pressure the majority of the shot will be pulled at. In theory, one could take ten small pulls with all of the espresso being brewed at the top of the pressure curve, for example.

Much has been written about the "limitation" of the small pull volume of the Sama/PV group. It is easy to flip that idea on it's head, and use this group to develop routines that take advantage of the small volume to create unique pressure-profiled shots. The thermosyphon group design of the Lusso makes this the only home lever that can easily facilitate this level of experimentation.

PC
LMWDP #049
Hand-ground, hand-pulled: "hands down.."

User avatar
beer&mathematics
Posts: 1366
Joined: 11 years ago

#5: Post by beer&mathematics »

peacecup wrote:Much has been written about the "limitation" of the small pull volume of the Sama/PV group. It is easy to flip that idea on it's head, and use this group to develop routines that take advantage of the small volume to create unique pressure-profiled shots. The thermosyphon group design of the Lusso makes this the only home lever that can easily facilitate this level of experimentation.

PC
Took me a few days to fully appreciate this quote PC. As you guys probably know, I've been playing more with my La Peppina lately. I am getting fantastic results from it and part of why I find it easier to use than the Export is because you can assist the lever because of the upside down design of the group. This means you just need to be in the ball park with the grind and then either retard a fast pull (rarely do I need to do this) or assist a slow pull (I like doing this since it gives the shot more body). Also, La Peppina can do it all in one pull to get a up to 1.5oz if you leave the lever to go up to the top including the blonding (but I pull the cup around 0.75-1oz range).

Now, last two days, I've been determined to get better shots from the Export. I didn't notice it before but now I realize why the Export is harder to use for me. First, once you pull down on the Export, you cannot assist the lever (I suppose you can slow it down, but if I have to I'm in trouble and it is a sink shot). So for me, the Export is much pickier about dose/grind.

My grinder is not cooperating lately so I've been having trouble dialing it in with my light roasts. But thinking of this thread, I've been timing my shots the last two days. And they last a loooong time. 3-5 minute range to get 1/2oz. And I loose track of how many mini pulls I do due to the tight grind and high dose (20g); probably 5-10 pulls. Certainly these are bitter and with little to no crema, but I just don't have the heart to throw them out after waiting 5 minutes. Instead I use a spoon to mix it, let it cool and enjoy. Not bad but notability bitter. Now, I am interested in how the lever moves for others.

For me, when I pull it down and release, 1/2 way up there is little to no resistance. Then the spring kicks in. For the 5 min shots I've been doing last two days, the lever moves about 10 degrees in 30 seconds (this is what I call a mini pull), then I pull down, hold for a few seconds, assist it with no pressure 1/2 way up, then let the spring move for 10 more degrees. Continue until I get bored and this yields 0.5-0.75oz.

Sorry for the long post.
LMWDP #431

pacificmanitou (original poster)
Posts: 1302
Joined: 12 years ago

#6: Post by pacificmanitou (original poster) »

Mine engages immediately, first pull takes 9-13 seconds, second pull finishes at 33-45 seconds. Lately I've been up dosing to 17.5g for an Ethiopian I've been using, 21g out.
LMWDP #366

User avatar
beer&mathematics
Posts: 1366
Joined: 11 years ago

#7: Post by beer&mathematics »

So something must be wrong with my lever? I'm nervous about trying to take apart the group.
LMWDP #431

User avatar
peacecup
Posts: 3649
Joined: 19 years ago

#8: Post by peacecup »

It sounds possible that the lower piston seal is not working properly. You can try testing this by making a few small pump-like movements to see if it engages sooner - like a bicycle pump with a worn or dry plunger. My Lusso was acting that way, so I probably need to change seals eventually.

Removing the piston is a pain, but it is not rocket science. It is easier for me at least with the group removed from the boiler. BE CAREFUL if you decide to remove the group, for two reasons: 1) the four bolts have the tendency to strip or even break, and 2) you need to have a backup gasket in case it breaks.

Alternatively, you can do the job without removing the group. The key is a properly-sized C clamp or making a jig of some kind. If you search the forums you'll see both solutions. PV makes a nifty tool from a portafilter that is by far the best way, but I do not have one. SorrentinaCoffee has posted pics of that. If you have questions about the process just ask.

PC
LMWDP #049
Hand-ground, hand-pulled: "hands down.."

User avatar
beer&mathematics
Posts: 1366
Joined: 11 years ago

#9: Post by beer&mathematics »

Oh boy, I remember these threads (group removal) from before owning a PV/S-E...I turn away with fright and horror... :cry:

Just to be clear, when you guys pull the lever all the way down, do you feel resistance as soon as you let go or sometime after, like for me begins approximately 1/2 of the way up?
LMWDP #431

pacificmanitou (original poster)
Posts: 1302
Joined: 12 years ago

#10: Post by pacificmanitou (original poster) »

If I prepped the puck well, it engages pretty quickly. Bad pucks can engage as much as halfway through. Those are the ones that channel quickly and pour fast. They taste dreadful.
LMWDP #366

Post Reply