Lately I've been wondering about trying out something new in my espresso setup that would be fun to experiment and play with. I'm very interested in lever machines, but I've always associated them with expensive shiny Elektras with gold eagles on top that make awesome espresso porn, but aren't so practical for higher-volume usage. I recently came across a number of threads about the Ponte Vecchio Lusso, and it seems like a very practical machine that has the interesting quirks of lever machines, and isn't too horribly expensive to boot.



Some background:

I've had my Duetto for about a year now, and I'm finally at the point where I can really do a predictably good and consistent job with pulling shots and steaming milk. I'm very happy with the shots and drinks I'm making now, and while I know there's a practically infinite selection of coffees, brew temps, doses, and other choices, my technique is decent enough that I'm no longer finding surprises or cursing my lousy skills all the time. I'm by no means the world's foremost expert on espresso, but I'm very happy with where I am compared to where I was a year ago. I have an awesome machine and and even nicer grinder, which has made a huge difference.

My typical usage is some espressos or Americanos in the morning, and 4-8 cappuccinos with a latte or two mixed in throughout the day (don't worry, it's not all for me! ). This is obviously on the upper end of what the Lusso could handle without a refill, so I'd probably be running my Duetto at the same time. I can also see myself keeping the Lusso at work or in a separate location if I buy another nice grinder some time in the future.

I really like the idea of having a new and completely different type of machine to use and play around with. I don't really want to get a fiddly machine that's good for a shot or two and constantly has to be refilled, and I probably wouldn't spend more than what the Lusso costs new. With this in mind, I'm wondering if the Lusso is a good fit for someone like me who is used to a PID dual boiler machine and has no plans to switch, but wants something interesting to complement their primary machine.

At this point, the only other lever machine I've even considered buying is the Gaggia Achille. A friend of mine owned one and liked it, but I never saw it in person. I've read that it's quite fiddly and has a tendency to break down, and that it isn't being produced anymore. I also recall reading Dan's comment about its taste profile being much closer to a typical E61 HX than any other lever machine, which makes me wonder if it's worth me buying it. Bearing in mind my comments above, I would love to hear any other suggestions for machines I should consider instead of the Lusso (or Achille).


A few questions:

1. How does a spring-assisted lever machine compare to fully manual units? If you want the "true" lever experience, is the Lusso a good choice?

2. How realistic is it to be able bang out 3-4 cappuccinos in quick succession? I don't host dinner parties, but I frequently have a couple of people over and have to make several milk drinks at once.

3. I like the idea of the two group model, and have a vague idea of how I might use it in my head, but I'm wondering how much of a benefit it provides in practice. How do you typically make use of both groups during a session, and is there any benefit in terms of temperature management?

4. Is the temperature management (or lack thereof) limiting? I understand lever machines in general aren't exactly PID dual boilers in this regard, but there are exceptions, like the Achille with its HX. Is it true that you don't typically see the sort of dramatic flavour profile changes from changes in temperature with a lever machine that you do with a typical consumer E61?

5. The two group Lusso is over $200 cheaper shipped from espressocoffeeshop.com than 1st-line. I live in Canada, so it's cross-border either way. I'm fairly handy with repairs, and don't see myself shipping it back unless it arrives horribly broken, in which case I'd expect the vendor to cover return shipping anyway. I think this mostly eliminates the proximity benefit of 1st-line, though I'm sure I'd get better service from them in terms of problem solving and replacement parts. I assume both stores are selling the current model with low level shut-off, etc., and espressocoffeeshop typically stocks 120V models for North American customers (I will check, of course). Any compelling reason I shouldn't buy from espressocoffeeshop?

6. I'm a bottomless portafilter person exclusively. I like to see the gory details of every extraction! Is there anywhere that sells bottomless portafilters for lever machines like the Lusso other than Orphan Espresso's extremely pretty but very expensive brass models? Do bottomless lever users typically buy the portafilters or cut down the original ones that came with the machine?

I've had my PVL 2 machine for 8 or so months and I think they are fabulous. They are practical, pragmatic machines, with their genius being their simplicity to produce a repeatable, high quality shot.

There is no doubt you get a 'different' taste profile with lever machines - more balance and clarity, but less chocolate and body, and crema; and to this extent they are indeed complimentary to any quality pump based machine, such as your Duetto, as well of course as the obvious look and feel differences. PV espressi in particular fall into the ristretti volume range, this is their strength.

But there are considerations that should be mentioned and which will be spelled out in your questions below.

1. How does a spring-assisted lever machine compare to fully manual units? If you want the "true" lever experience, is the Lusso a good choice?

I also own a La Pav EP - a fully manual machine. And yes, such machines are the only true "manual" machines, as the spring in a spring lever removes this variable from the barista. With springs levers, you are forced to use the pressure profile of the spring, which is around 6-7 bars at the start before tailing off to 3-4 bars at the end. Clearly you can vary this on manual machines based on "feel" as you pull the shot, which to many is an advantage, allowing you to further experiment with taste profiles. For me at least, this advantage is not that pronounced, although I suspect if I owned a Cremina my view might well be different. I'd even throw in vintage manual levers here such as the Caravel as viable alternatives if we are talking pure espresso. The flip side to this is that you get consistency and less fuss with springs.

From a pure shot-pull-satisfaction view point, I dont feel any less satisfaction seeing a great shot pulled on my PV than on my LP. It is great seeing the spring gently rising under its own pressure as a lovely ristretto extracts into your glass. It is also sweet feeling a wonderful pull on a manual. They are both equally pleasurable experiences.

So the short answer is that, yes, spring and manual levers are different with pros and cons for each, and personal preferences come into play here. Ideally you would have room for both types! It is fair to say that within the pure manual class of machines there are differences quality and performance. However no one will say that PV's are a bad lever machine choice, and there is a hardcore on the Forum that swears by them. Nothing to fear there.

2. How realistic is it to be able bang out 3-4 cappuccinos in quick succession? I don't host dinner parties, but I frequently have a couple of people over and have to make several milk drinks at once.

You can - but obviously make sure you are not too low on water. These are not an automatic refill machines. However you do have a 3 litre boiler which is plenty pumping loads of steam, and perhaps the largest capacity boiler of any home lever. This is well and truly a club machine and it can take on dinner parties with ease. I would stress however that if you are looking large cappucinos then this is not the machine for you. Small, italian-style, cappucini is what it can do exceedlingly well, forced upon it by its ristretto volume output. That is a good thing.

3. I like the idea of the two group model, and have a vague idea of how I might use it in my head, but I'm wondering how much of a benefit it provides in practice. How do you typically make use of both groups during a session, and is there any benefit in terms of temperature management?

There are benefits but I wouldn't say they are massive. Practically you can only use one group at a time. But it does allow you to turnaround orders more quickly if you are moving at a pace and you flush clean after each pull (as one group will always therefore be clean for your next shot). In reality by the time you have prepared and ground your next shot the thermospyhon loop would have cooled your group sufficiently enough if you have one group only. The temp stability of the PV's are excellent.

4. Is the temperature management (or lack thereof) limiting? I understand lever machines in general aren't exactly PID dual boilers in this regard, but there are exceptions, like the Achille with its HX. Is it true that you don't typically see the sort of dramatic flavour profile changes from changes in temperature with a lever machine that you do with a typical consumer E61?

The PV's are extraordinarily consistent shot to shot with flavour profile, and their temperature stability for lever machines is perhaps the most consistent you will get for a machine in its class that can also steam. That is what is unique about these machines. New millenium Cremina machines also have much improved reported temperature stability capabilities, but a chunky cost. Clearly steaming is important to you, otherwise vintage non steam machines would have fitted your bill, and would have given you a completely different experience again. If you are approaching it from a wish to control temperatures to the nth degree, then short of adjusting the pstat you really are unable to do this on PV's. They have a pretty large sweetspot and are particularly forgiveable on different types of coffee and grind. This may translate in fewer absolute god shots for you, but will produce consistently excellent shots nonetheless.

5. The two group Lusso is over $200 cheaper shipped from espressocoffeeshop.com than 1st-line. I live in Canada, so it's cross-border either way. I'm fairly handy with repairs, and don't see myself shipping it back unless it arrives horribly broken, in which case I'd expect the vendor to cover return shipping anyway. I think this mostly eliminates the proximity benefit of 1st-line, though I'm sure I'd get better service from them in terms of problem solving and replacement parts. I assume both stores are selling the current model with low level shut-off, etc., and espressocoffeeshop typically stocks 120V models for North American customers (I will check, of course). Any compelling reason I shouldn't buy from espressocoffeeshop?

Cant comment on this as based in the UK, but lever machines like the PV are comfortably home serviceable once you get the parts. I would recommend getting a small stock in advance, seals, lube, etc

6. I'm a bottomless portafilter person exclusively. I like to see the gory details of every extraction! Is there anywhere that sells bottomless portafilters for lever machines like the Lusso other than Orphan Espresso's extremely pretty but very expensive brass models? Do bottomless lever users typically buy the portafilters or cut down the original ones that came with the machine?

I've got bottomless as well for my two, on the thinking that I didnt want any valuable espresso to be caught up in the PF when the volumes are already pretty small. And like you I like to see the full gore of my technique. Again I sourced these in Europe and therefore not practical for you. I would imagine the most cost effective way for you is to find someone who can hole tham out and return to you. I am sure others can point you in the right direction here. Post Edit: http://www.espressoparts.com/F_PFMOD

So in sum, I think PVL would indeed be an excellent complimentary purchase. A part of me also says that getting a vintage Caravel or Peppina would also give you a completely different espresso experience, and that you continue to use your Duetto for any requiring steaming, considering that you will still have it on in the background. For me at least, it is the espresso that holds the real interest and fun....

Good luck

In general the shot volume is low, around 1 oz - 30 ml. With 15g in the basket this means a 15g:30ml shot, or a typical ristretto. With the two group you could use both groups in sequence to make a powerful 60 ml shot!

You can also take more pulls once you get the routine down, to get the shot up to 45 ml or so.

You are NOT forced to work with the reducing pressure of the spring as it decompresses, although it may be desirable. I'm currently working on a method that I rather stumbled on, that uses repeated pulls to brew at the top end of the pressure spectrum throughout the shot. As soon as I can I'll start a thread on that.

I use both spring and manual levers, and as noted, they are a little different. Over time you'll end up with one of each if you like the lever experience, but either one is great. I must say that the PV is so easy to get great espresso from - much easier in my opinion than a pump machine.

If you make a lot of milk drinks, a spring lever is a joy to use - you can steam and pull shots at the same time.

I find the shots from lever machines have more body, but I'm no taste expert.

Overall, I'd say if you have an interest in lever machines, you'll probably really like using one. The PV comes at a pretty good price for what you get, provided you don't have quality issues. I have not had any, and they seem minor, but you could read up on the. Mine has been going strong for four years.

PC

What duties would need to be paid, or are espresso machines in a special bracket that make them exempt?

I've recently decided that I need this very same machine, and the price from espressocoffeeshop.com is a very solid price ($1136 CND shipped).

KnowGood wrote:What duties would need to be paid, or are espresso machines in a special bracket that make them exempt?

The customs tariff lists 9% for anything classified as a "coffee maker". You'll also pay your regular sales tax rate in addition to the duty. In Ontario, this amounts to 22%! This only applies to the declared value of the machine, not the shipping charge. Expect to pay another 3% for currency conversion on your credit card.

Both duty and tax will be due on delivery, but there shouldn't be any extra brokerage charges.

Bob_McBob wrote: In Ontario, this amounts to 22%!

What a kick in the nuts. I need to push some buttons to see if this still works out cheaper than 1st or if it would be easier to have the machine sent to The UPS Store in Tonawanda or Buffalo and bring it across myself.

KnowGood wrote:What a kick in the nuts. I need to push some buttons to see if this still works out cheaper than 1st or if it would be easier to have the machine sent to The UPS Store in Tonawanda or Buffalo and bring it across myself.

If you're actually going to pay the tax and duty, it would end up being about US$100 more expensive from 1st-line (plus gas and other expenses).

Sweden charges 25% import fee, plus customs fees. Canada is cheap!

You may also look at orphanespresso - they go over the machines before they ship, and test them for defects. Although most machines seem to work fine, a few buyers have reported quality control issues. I think you can find their posts.

PC

Does Orphan Espresso actually carry the Lusso? I see all the parts on their web site, but not the machine itself.

Having some extra options for ordering is handy, but I'm much more interested in figuring out whether this is the sort of machine I should be buying to complement my Duetto. I checked out the Cremina auctions on eBay, and prices still seem to be all over the place at the higher end, much more so for the newer models. I'd definitely prefer a new machine vs. vintage and possibly needing parts and service.

From what I can see from Orphan Espresso, they tend to only sell machines that comes across their way (eg through ebay purchase et al) which they then refurbish/restore and resell. I dont think they carry "new" machine stock per se.

Based on your requirements it sounds like the PVL is a no brainer to me. Although that sales tax and duty costs are such buggers.