I've recently decided to go bottomless on my europiccola! Of course, I'm having some culture shocks trying to deal with sprays (usually not channeling jets, but I have them on occasion) that are now making my cup and machine look like something not so tasty happened. Oddly enough the shots are about the same, or even a bit better tasting. Still I would like the sprays to lessen and have everything look nice...maybe it also means my shot quality could improve!

My grinder (Mazzer Super Jolly) clumps like crazy, so I think this could be one of the reasons why. So far my coping technique that seems to have improved things a little has been:

(1) Grind a bit finer and lessen tamp.
(2) Pay more attention to breaking up clumps and to distribution in general

I'm thinking to go beyond this I might need to start using WDT and a yogurt cup or whatever works so I can really break up all clumps quickly. Any other suggestions?

I've also had the thought that maybe the bottomless portafilter wasn't really made for levers, some crazy contortions are necessary to both pull a shot and view on this machine. I do have plans to mount a mirror of some sort to view the shot while pulling...hopefully I can get these sprays under control tho.

Thanks!

Hey Droshi,

I converted my Pavoni's portafilter to a bottom-less a few months ago. There has been nothing more helpful than the WDT. It is impossible for me to get good extractions without it. The Pavoni's are really sensitive machines and every misstep that you make is displayed mercilessly. It took me a lot of practicing to get decent extractions.

You're completely right about the inconvenience of the bottom-less on the Pavoni. Oh, the awkwardness of the naked lever extraction...

Assuming you are not using your SJ doserless, tighten up the doser nut to dedcrease the dose so that you have to flick the lever more times to get the dose desired. This should break up the clumps. I have no problem with clumping on my SJ.

Other assumptions are that your burrs are sharp and clean.....

I've since switched back to the single basket. Much easier to get a good extraction.

It's been harder than expected to come up with a yogurt cup of the right shape and a pointy implement for WDT that works well. I've improvised, but paper clips don't work so well, and short pins are annoying. Anyway, the growing pains should be over soon. Lately I've been developing my home roasting setup more so I haven't had much time to fiddle with the Pavoni lately.

The SJ probably clumps because I don't start flicking the doser until grinding is finished. I really don't like coffee shooting everywhere while I try to dose, it kind of feels like filling up a cup with a hose on "mist" setting. I also use a 0.1g scale to be sure that I'm consistent.

Hopefully WDT will fix my problems Any suggestions on equipment that works best for it?

Flick while grinding but flick gently

There's no need to imitate a machine gun.

It can be done and of course you can hold your PF or basket slightly to the left if you're still shooting skew. You'll get very little clumping and very little waste.

Cheers

MIke

I don't know if this technique will be adequate for your Pavoni, but I have been using Mr. Brown's distribution technique for a couple of years: dose heaping into your basket, cover with an upended extra basket, give a toss upwards (grounds are contained in the upended basket), uncover and level. With a practiced toss, clumps are minimized and the basket, after leveling, is ready for the tamp.

Best wishes with the Pavoni.

Droshi wrote:I've since switched back to the single basket. Much easier to get a good extraction.
...
Hopefully WDT will fix my problems Any suggestions on equipment that works best for it?

Most people find the double basket yields easier extractions. Dosing is tricky with the single basket.

I've had good luck with 51-53mm funnels cut from Yoplait containers. You might try small plastic cups for 49mm pre-Millenium filter baskets. The trusty ol' dissecting needle is IMHO still the best WDT tool available.

ost people find the double basket yields easier extractions. Dosing is tricky with the single basket.

I've had good luck with 51-53mm funnels cut from Yoplait containers. You might try small plastic cups for 49mm pre-Millenium filter baskets. The trusty ol' dissecting needle is IMHO still the best WDT tool available.

Oddly enough the single basket for me seems much easier to get a good extraction. Maybe it's just the design or my technique. I'll try looking for the proper sized tiny plastic cups. I agree as well to the dissecting needle...but that might prove impossible for me to obtain! A long pin seems hard enough to find.

I don't know if this technique will be adequate for your Pavoni, but I have been using Mr. Brown's distribution technique for a couple of years: dose heaping into your basket, cover with an upended extra basket, give a toss upwards (grounds are contained in the upended basket), uncover and level. With a practiced toss, clumps are minimized and the basket, after leveling, is ready for the tamp.

Best wishes with the Pavoni.

I COMPLETELY forgot about this! I used to use it a long time ago, before I had the Pavoni. Will try it again as I think it might have some success.

If that doesn't work I'll try michael's suggestions to flick while grinding. Previous times I've tried have been disaster, but maybe if I'm not too crazy with it.

Thanks for all the suggestions!

I have a bottomless Pavoni with a Super Jolly and have very good results as long as I do the WDT, but for me I have found the WDT to be essential even though I am an avid thwacker. In the US small single serving yogurt containers tend to be the perfect size for the 51mm baskets, but I'm not sure if they can be obtained in the same size in Europe.

I think chopping the bottom off the portafilter is also essential with a Pavoni exactly because it is so picky. If the machine didn't have a tendency towards chanelling and spritzes you wouldn't need a bottomless as much, but at least for me it has been a huge help in learning how to pull better shots (even though it does take some contortion to watch the shots closely and pull the lever at the same time).

Hugh

I got the chance to get together everything for the WDT today. It seems to help reduce the number of real channels I get, however I'm still getting a lot of splattering. While this doesn't seem to affect shot quality, it's quite annoying to lose that coffee and to have to constantly clean up so many things, not to mention the cup looks terrible. I'm kind of afraid this is just how things are with a bottomless on the Pavoni. Any other suggestions?

I think maybe I should have just left everything alone....it's too bad new portafilters are about $150.

Droshi wrote:... I'm still getting a lot of splattering. While this doesn't seem to affect shot quality, it's quite annoying to lose that coffee and to have to constantly clean up so many things, not to mention the cup looks terrible. I'm kind of afraid this is just how things are with a bottomless on the Pavoni. Any other suggestions?

I respectfully disagree. Although lever machines are finicky creatures, it is possible coax consistently good looking, spatter-free pours from your Pavoni. As usual, you'll need quality beans, a good espresso grinder (the SJ is fine), impeccable technique, and practice practice practice.

One nice thing about manual levers: you can vary just about every aspect of the pour. Read up on some of the technical finesses when you get a chance: raise the lever before locking in (to avoid pulling air through the puck), allow a few seconds preinfusion, give the Fellini move a try, gradual ramp up of pressure on the lever, etc.

Keep at it and the spritzies should gradually go away. And don't forget to enjoy the journey!

I agree with John, I rarely get any spritzes, although I got tons at first and it took a while for me to get rid of them, so I'm sure you will get rid of them, too. I'd guess that 1/10 of my shots now have small spritzes and the others have none. Hugh

Same here as John & da gino... rarely a spritz or splatter with my bottomless - simply part of getting to know your machine and your technique... after a while you just get a feel for the things that let you minimize (and eventually eliminate) the problem.

As for dosing/distributing, though I've been doing the WDT pretty regularly with good results, I'm intrigued by grong's "extra basket flip"... I suddenly feel the urge to get a spare basket & give it a try...

RapidCoffee wrote:I respectfully disagree. Although lever machines are finicky creatures, it is possible coax consistently good looking, spatter-free pours from your Pavoni. As usual, you'll need quality beans, a good espresso grinder (the SJ is fine), impeccable technique, and practice practice practice.

One nice thing about manual levers: you can vary just about every aspect of the pour. Read up on some of the technical finesses when you get a chance: raise the lever before locking in (to avoid pulling air through the puck), allow a few seconds preinfusion, give the Fellini move a try, gradual ramp up of pressure on the lever, etc.

Keep at it and the spritzies should gradually go away. And don't forget to enjoy the journey!

Not to say that I'm doing everything perfectly (obviously), but rather I'm more at a loss on what to try next. My routine already consists of raising the lever to just before the fill point. Locking in. I then proceed to fill and slightly press until the first drops are seen. I then back off for a full piston fill and wait for around a total 10s preinfusion time (maybe I should try increasing this much more?).

I haven't thought to try a gradual ramp up of the pressure, not sure exactly if you mean to just not clobber the lever, or if you mean a 10s long buildup to full pressure. Either way I'll try to see if this works along with longer preinfusion times.

Although the splattering is frustrating, I still feel I'm getting great tasting pours, so to me that's 90%. Although I'm hoping eliminating them will help bring the taste up as well.

Droshi wrote:Not to say that I'm doing everything perfectly (obviously), but rather I'm more at a loss on what to try next. My routine already consists of raising the lever to just before the fill point. Locking in. I then proceed to fill and slightly press until the first drops are seen. I then back off for a full piston fill and wait for around a total 10s preinfusion time (maybe I should try increasing this much more?).

When doing the Fellini move, eliminate the 10 second "preinfusion" after the first drops appear. At this point the puck is already fully preinfused. Just return the lever to the top, and give one complete downwards stroke.

Alternatively, eliminate the Fellini move and try just one pull. Hold the lever at the top for a few seconds (no more than 10) to begin preinfusion, and then give a full downwards stroke, gradually ramping up the pressure. You should not see any drops appear until you start the downwards pull.

The 10s preinfusion I've tried to keep constant and starting right when water hits the coffee. So the time during Fellini counts as well, normally just means I wait another 5s or so before pulling. Drops appear only when pressing the lever and never before.

I'm trying to change just one thing at a time so I can know if it made any difference, but even still changes eventually stack up. For example I used to do no Fellini and almost no preinfusion time, but during that time my distribution technique was different than the WDT that I'm using now.

I have the old 49mm Pavoni, so would you say that preinfusion should be done while the valve is shooting steam and letting the cylinder be under boiler pressure? Or should it be cut off from pressure and allowed to rest just under the fill point for the 10s? Normally I keep it under pressure, but maybe this is a problem.

I'm usually pretty constant with everything, but I guess it's hard to remember all the variables that are available when it's practically everything!

Thanks for all the suggestions!

r-gordon-7 wrote: I'm intrigued by grong's "extra basket flip"... I suddenly feel the urge to get a spare basket & give it a try...

I decided to try the double basket toss this morning and pulled one of my better shots by taste! The pour looked like a WDT pour to me. I'll certainly experiment with it some more.

By the way, in terms of personal preference in my ritual, I find my best shots are single pulls and if instead I try the Fellini or double pull it is fine, but rarely as good. Also I tend to follow the WDT with Dan's Stochfleths for dummies and then a quick NSEW level. When I skip the WDT the average pull is not as good, but the other two steps seem to be helpful, but less essential. Droshi, I'm glad the shots taste great as that is obviously the important thing.

My dosing pattern goes as such:

Measure 0.5g extra worth of beans for a target 9.0g shot (old 49mm pavoni) in the double and 6.5g-7g in the single. Lately I've been trying to perfect doubles tho. After grinding it casually goes into the basket with the cup already in and on the gram scale until 9.0 is achieved. After that a stir with the sewing needle stuck in the end of an eraser pencil; stirring both small circles and back and forth making sure to get to the bottom of the basket. Once I get close to the end I try to use the needle to even out the top, and if anything else is left I use the handle of a small spoon to level the grinds off. Generally at this point the coffee isn't to the top of the basket, but I could have sworn before using WDT it used to be just about perfectly level at this dose. After the top is even I then slightly tap a couple of times straight down to try to get out any pockets. Then tamp with only the weight of the tamper. Grind size is fine enough to allow for this.

I have found this technique to be very repeatable and to work well as far as taste goes. But I'm still getting the splattering. I find that I don't care much for the shots when I move higher in dose as they tend to lose fruit and sweetness and be replaced with more chocolate and woody flavors. Occassionally it's nice if the bean has some funky fruit or high notes, but generally I like an underdosed to normal dose flavor.

What dose sizes do others with the 49mm group use? I'm thinking to try updosing a bit more even if I don't like the flavor to see if I can get rid of the splattering. If that doesn't work I may try a zero tamp and finer grind.

Just trying to see if anyone can spot a flaw in my routine, or can suggest other changes.

Droshi wrote:I have the old 49mm Pavoni, so would you say that preinfusion should be done while the valve is shooting steam and letting the cylinder be under boiler pressure? Or should it be cut off from pressure and allowed to rest just under the fill point for the 10s? Normally I keep it under pressure, but maybe this is a problem.

That sounds right. The lever should be fully up for passive preinfusion. The Fellini move uses gentle pressure from the lever for more aggressive preinfusion.

Droshi wrote:My dosing pattern goes as such:
Measure 0.5g extra worth of beans for a target 9.0g shot (old 49mm pavoni) in the double and 6.5g-7g in the single.

I use 12-14g in the 51mm Millenium double basket with good success. 9g is pretty serious downdosing. But follow your tastebuds, not mine.

da gino wrote:By the way, in terms of personal preference in my ritual, I find my best shots are single pulls and if instead I try the Fellini or double pull it is fine, but rarely as good.

Agreed (mostly). Others swear by multiple pulls, but I always found the second pull on a Pavoni/Gaggia Factory Millenium model to be overextracted dishwater. The Fellini move works reasonably well on these machines.

RapidCoffee wrote:I use 12-14g in the 51mm Millenium double basket with good success. 9g is pretty serious downdosing. But follow your tastebuds, not mine.

I think this is mostly due to the 49mm vs 51mm baskets. But I would have thought the differences should be only 1-2g. I'll try 10g and see what happens.