ladalet wrote:I probably could have easily gotten 1.5oz out of a single pull.

I thought that I would put this to the test. Nope, I only got a solid 1oz before blonding and the flavor was no better than the 1.7oz I pulled in the previous shot above using 2 half pulls.

Four day old Colombian roasted to the first whisper of the second crack (Full City+).

Cremina: dosed 16g, active pre-infusion yielded ~1.8 oz on one pull. The grind was a little tight. The pour was slow with two oozing mouse tails with swirling stripes of caramel and brown. The color was dark caramel with dark brown mottling and speckles. Crema was massive, thick, and persistent. Body was medium+ and texture was smooth, velvety, silky, creamy, buttery...well there just are not enough adjectives to describe it. Flavor was a mild but full caramel sweet milk chocolate, vanilla, not quite ripe fruit, a tad nutty, allspice and nutmeg, and a slight pleasant light citrus note in the finish. In short, this is one of the best shots of espresso I have had in a long time if ever.

Club: dosed 12g at the same grind as the Cremina with the 16g basket. Passive pre-infusion yielded drops after 8 seconds. Pour was a little fast. Mouse tails became mouse streams. 2 half pulls yielded 1.7oz. Color was pale caramel with little mottling or speckling. Crema was thin and faded quickly. Body was thin with no texture. Flavor was weak light chocolate, hint of caramel sweetness, citrus dominated, dry tannin and faint sour finish. Not so good.

Club: dosed 12g and 1 click finer on the grind. Passive pre-infusion did not result in drops. A mild bump with active pre-infusion got the drops. A few more seconds of passive would have done it. Two half pulls yielded 1.7oz. The pour looked good with two nice mouse tails with striping. The color was medium caramel with mottling and speckles. Crema was moderate and somewhat persistent. The shot had medium to thin body and smooth texture. Flavor was brighter than the Cremina, milk chocolate with caramel with a citrus cast and a citrus finish. Not bad but not really good either.

I will try a tighter grind on the Club and will pull a shot using the 12g basket on the Cremina next. I am a little too wired to drink any more espresso right now. I will have to do it later today or tomorrow.

Also, given how light the roast is I think that the Colombian will taste better tomorrow and even better over the next couple of days. I think that the citrus will mellow with the unripe fruit will mature into a nice cherry note.

Well it is tomorrow, but I forgot to use my 12g basket in my Cremina. So, the result is merely what one additional day of resting at this degree of roast expresses in the cup. I will pull a shot with the 12g basket tomorrow.

Five day old Colombian roasted to the first whisper of the second crack (Full City+).

Cremina: dosed 16g, active pre-infusion yielded ~1.8 oz on one pull. The grind was still a little tight. I figured that if I liked it this tight yesterday, why mess with it. Like yesterday, the pour was slow with two oozing mouse tails with swirling stripes of caramel and brown. The color was dark caramel with dark brown mottling and speckles. Crema was massive, thick, and persistent. Body was medium++ and texture was smooth and creamy but with more texture than yesterday. Where yesterdays texture was delicate, today's texture was more like a chocolate mousse. Flavor was a rich and full caramel sweet dark milk chocolate, a hint of vanilla, a tad nutty, a and well developed cherry note that persisted into a sweet caramel, allspice, and nutmeg finish. In short, this is yet another one of the best shots of espresso I have had in a long time if ever.

For day after tomorrow I have another batch of this same Colombian that I roasted 3 days ago. I roasted it darker about 20 seconds into the second crack to about a Full City ++ or a very light Vienna. The beans are not shiny. There were little droplets of oil on them at the end of the roast that were reabsorbed into the beans as they cooled.

OK, I know, it is not tomorrow yet, but my wife wanted a latte. Since she only uses a single shot, that leaves a shot for me to sample. So, this was a great excuse to pull a shot on my Cremina with the 12g basket.

Five day old Colombian roasted to the first whisper of the second crack (Full City+) pulled in my Cremina using 12g basket.

The shot was very similar to the shot in the 16 gram basket that I pulled earlier today just not as strong or rich. The texture got a little smoother and more delicate. The chocolate softened into a more milk chocolate, a little less caramel sweetness, the cherry was a little less pronounced, and the nuttiness , allspice and nutmeg expressed a little more. The crema was not as full or persistent. The shot yielded about 1.5 oz. A very enjoyable shot.

5 day old Colombian roasted to about 20 seconds into the second crack to about a Full City++ or Light Vienna. No sheen to the beans just a drop of oil here and there.

Cremina 16 gram basket active pre-infusion one pull 2 oz. Rich flavor with a full body and creamy mousse like texture. Dark milk chocolate with cherry mixed in. The cherry did not stand out at this degree of roast. I kind of merged with the chocolate. Nice caramel sweetness trails the chocolate with a nice sweet nutty finish. The vanilla notes were absent. The flavors were kind of blurred together. The Crema was dark and heavily marbled and striated, full, thick, dense, and persistent.

Cremina 12 gram basket passive pre-infusion (drips at 10 seconds), one pull, stopped at 1.5 oz. Nice nuanced flavor, medium body, and delicate smooth texture. Semi-Dark milk chocolate with caramel sweetness, a hint of vanilla, diffuse cherry notes, pronounced nutty finish. The crema was moderately dark and marbled, moderately full, somewhat dense and persistent.

Club 12 gram basket passive pre-infusion (drips at 8 seconds), two half pulls, stopped at 1.5 oz. Bright nuanced complex flavor, medium body, delicate texture, light mouth feel, caramel milk chocolate with vanilla and assertive nutty notes and finish. The cherry was kind of diffusely mixed in in the background overwhelmed by the assertive nuttiness.

All three shots were very good in there own way.

The sweetness texture and body were best with the Cremina 16g shot.

There is definitely a good argument for sometimes using the 12g basket in the Cremina. The smaller basket allows some of the flavors hidden in the denser fuller 16 gram shot to unpack and express in the 12g shot.

The Club shot is all that plus a in your face assertive wow shot. At this degree of roast is where the Club seems to begin to come to life.

This is really fun. I wish I could have both machines on at the same time side by side without popping a circuit breaker. I use one machine in the morning and the other in the afternoon. So, I cannot pull shots side by side. Oh well!

Additional thoughts and provisional subjective conclusions

On thing that has become clear in this comparison is that my preference of the Cremina would be greatly reduced without the Elektra basket. There are times when the 12g factory basket is very nice, but it is the 16g Elektra basket that ultimately allows the Cremina to produce the cup of espresso that I really like--at least with roasts in the Light Vienna range and lighter. With the factory 12g baskets the difference between Club and Cremina in the cup becomes less extreme. So, pretty much any opinion that I have expressed on the Cremina up until know have been relevant only to the Cremina/Elektra basket combo and not to the Cremina/factory basket combo as I have not used the factory basket since I received the Elektra basket about a month after purchasing my Cremina.

However, for me the Elektra basket just does not work out in the Club. The engineers at Olympia designed the spring in the Club to overcome a limited range of resistance offered by the factory speced 12g basket. The spring is overwhelmed by the 16g Elektra basket. I was able to get some very good shots from the Elektra basket, but the grind and the dosing and the tamp had to be all right on and I had to usually do 3 half pulls just right without upsetting the puck. It just was not consistent enough. Plus, I just plain was able to get consistently better tasting shots from the 12g basket and the machines spring never seemed overwhelmed--unless I ground too fine.

The Cremina with either basket really seems to enhance body, texture and sweetness. However, coffees like the Sumatran which are low acid and already heavy in body become very heavy, syrupy and the flavors become a little muddy. The 12 gram basket is better here on the Cremina, but the Club definitely has the advantage here. The Club seems to elevate the brightness and expression of the acids in the coffee. Also, on lighter roasts the Club seems to produce less body and texture. However, on a Sumatran the Club moves it from being syrupy and gives it a very nice body and texture and brings out some complexity.

On darker roasts, moving towards a Vienna and darker, the Cremina expresses them more on the bitter sweet side. Again, the 12g basket here is preferred over the Elektra basket. As you move into a full Vienna or darker the coffee begins to taste bitter and on some carbon and burnt. The Club does a much better job with darker roasts. Where the Cremina is bitter sweet and unpleasant the Club is semi sweet and pleasant. At a light Vienna is where the Cremina peaks at being able express to my liking and the Club just begins to come alive. I really do not care for the coffee from the Cremina at all at a roast any darker than Vienna. I am not really fond of coffee from the Club much lighter than light Vienna--except for coffees like Sumatran--but do not like coffee from either machine at French Roast. I just do not prefer darker roasts at all if I can help it.

I still prefer my Cremina with the Elektra basket at a roast hovering around a full city. However, as the roast gets darker I would go to the 12g basket on the Cremina and then ultimately to the Club. I just would not choose a darker roast other than to experiment with.

A while back I did accidentally roast a batch of this Colombian to the dark end of Vienna and it tasted ashy, carbon, and burnt on both machines--more so on the Cremina. However, it tasted great in an antique percolator, vacuum pot, and pour over. However, I may have ground too tight as I was not used to a darker roast.

This is just my subjective impression. Yours may vary.

Again, this is just a provisional assessment as I get to know and contrast these machines. I will post again when I find anything new, interesting, or that distinguishes either or both of these machines. Goodbye for now.

I have not wasted any time since my last post getting to know "BOTH" my Cremina and Club better. The comments on this post and other posts have inspired me to spend some time playing around and tweaking both machines. I have spent a lot of time experimenting with temperature. I have turned the temperature up on both machines from too hot and slowly dialed them back until too cold and then back to too hot. Unfortunately, I do not have a pressure gauge to log the relevant boiler pressures. I found a sweet spot for both machines. I made a mild improvement for my Cremina increasing brightness and complexity without giving up body or crema. I made a major improvement on my Club. I picked up a lot of body, crema, and sweetness at the expense of a little brightness. I think this is a more desirable balance. In fact, the differences between my Cremina and Club in the cup is greatly reduced. In fact, they both express in the cup very nearly the same. In terms of just flavor in the cup I cannot say there is a clear winner any more. They still have the same relative difference in where each falls on the brightness scale, but the difference in magnitude is greatly reduced. The cremina still produces more crema, body, and volume but the gap has been reduced. I am finding that dosing 16g and sometimes up to 17g works out best on the Cremina (depending on the coffee), and 14g to 15g on the Club (depending on the coffee) works out best. I have also found that a 1.5 oz shot volume for a double is always amazing in both machines. Even though the Cremina can usually pull off a great 2 oz shot, it can always pull of an amazing 1.5oz shot.

The inspiration for this post came a couple of days ago when the piston shaft seal started leaking on my Cremina requiring me to exclusively use my Club until I can get a new seal from Orphan (we are real lucky to have Doug and Barb at Orphan). To my surprise I have not missed my Cremina at all. Add to that the superior frothing for my wife's lattes, larger boiler, and water dispenser I think I have a provisional win for the Club for the first time.

I hope all is well with everyone at HB.

Best wishes,
Lance

Hate to say I told you so, but I'm glad the Club is gaining ground.

PC

peacecup wrote:Hate to say I told you so, but I'm glad the Club is gaining ground.

PC

That is OK. I don't mind a gracious "I told you so". If you don't get an I told you so every once in a while you are not trying. That is what is so fantastic about a great forum where the acid test of clashing opinions grinds away at error. If I were afraid of making mistakes or being wrong I would not have discovered this new dimension to my Club. It really takes a lot of work to uncover error. It is much easier to follow the path of least resistance (Epstein's Law) and be comfortable with ones current beliefs.

Also, thanks to Doma roasting I had enough beans to comfortably play around with the temperature settings to the degree that I did. I have never had that luxury before.

Everything I said previously about the Club was true at the temperature settings used at that time. I did play with the temp a little at that time. There was just more to the Club than those limited settings. For some those earlier settings may be the ideal settings and they may hate my current settings. I think that the real message is don't assume that the factory default or standard settings are correct. Find the settings that work for you. I am just amazed what a small turn of the pressure stat can make. I probably could have discovered this much earlier had I listened better and taken Doug's advise more literally.

I appreciate everyone's feedback in this continuing journey. I am not closing the book on either machine. It is way too much fun playing with them and there is still way too much to learn yet.

Best wishes,
Lance

I am just amazed what a small turn of the pressure stat can make.

Yup. Which is why the mod that Orphan Espresso did on the Ponte Vecchio was so nice. It's a shame it's not easier to fiddle with - but I suppose the maker's are worried about safety.... hence the horrendous glue on the Pavs...

You've done a great job on providing extensive feedback. Funny isn't it how a strong first impression can mellow and unfold? I've had a similar journey withe Cremina and Elektra.

Cheers

Mike