Firstly, I am totally new to not only using a lever machine, but espresso making in general. Having read and watched a million things on how to perform this art, I've come to the realization that I need to ask some very strange questions. Some of them that come to mind are:

When tamping for a lever machine are you still trying to follow basic principles like 30lbs of pressure on the tamp?

Does the collar/sidewall on your tamper play in part with your tamper piston height? I noticed that the Richard Penney tampers have 5mm collars/sidewalls for "perfect headspace", but measuring my head and a puck with a dime, both measurements are 9mm. How much head space is needed and should there be any space at all? I assume you don't want the grind to touch the screen, correct? If it doesn't touch there must be some space.

I've pulled about 20 shots with it in the last 24hrs, and they all seem to be somewhat the same. I get OK crema, not a lot, but nothing like some of the youtube shots I've seen performed with this machine. The biggest problem I'm facing is that I don't know anyone that could taste said shots and give me an honest answer if they are alright or not. Without some critique, the only thing that I can think of at this point is that the beans I bought weren't as fresh as they lead me to believe. My grinder could somewhat be the culprit, but I did manage to choke the machine. I am thinking that if it is, it is on a small scale. Any and all info is greatly appreciated.

Hello KnowGood,

Welcome to espresso made on a lever machine.

You have a Europiccola, right? I have a Ponte Vecchio Lusso, which is spring driven. What follows is what works on my spring lever, and some of it might work for you, too.

I tamp light, about 5 pounds, and grind fine enough that my espresso flows out somewhere between drips and a flow, as this seems to taste best. I adjust the grind with as the beans age and as they age.

I find it critical to use super fresh beans, in most cases up to 7 days old, sometimes longer depending on the beans and how they were roasted. I roast my own. To start, you want super fresh beans, and this will make a nice, tasty pull much easer.

With the right tamp and grind, set for an easy dripping slow flow, it is within reach to get espresso shots with a persistent head of cream, with all the body filled with bubbly espresso body. This seems to taste great.

Fresh beans, light tamp, even quality grind adjusted to get the flow you desire—this makes for quality results.

I adjust my dose so that it does not touch the screen in my machine.

I have a Pavoni on the way, and am looking forward to using this machine, also.

Hi...choosing a lever as your first(?) machine is brave, indeed.
#!)...are yoiu grinding your beans fresh?
If not, THERE'S your answer.
A dedicated espresso grinder and fresh beans (meaning roasted within the week, day 3-12 post roast date for drinking is usually best)
Pre-ground beans will not give anything close to big bodied crema, and pronounced fruit tastes.
If you have a grinder, which one? Whirly blades and cheap burr grinders such as a Braun, etc are only adequate for drip...if that.
A finer grind/lighter tamp is generally the better way to go. I'm down to a 15# tamp with a light polish.
I own a Penney and a Reg, love them both, but find with the smaller PF's (49mm/51mm) the Penney's reduced piston thickness allows me to get a better feel for leveling, as I can use the basket sides as a guide. Highly recommended, as is his "Newd PF."
My last 3 words, GRINDER, GRINDER, GRINDER.
Good luck.

Lyndon,
You don't say whether you like the coffee that you are making. Crema doesn't guarantee taste.

There aren't a lot of undisputed basic principles. Different people tamp differently but the major factor for me is the relationship between extraction time and grind fineness/coarseness. For my Elektra I half fill the group handle, tamp lightly, then fill and tamp lightly again. I never get a lot of crema and I don't really care provided that the coffee tastes good. My wife wants crema but she wants to make patterns with it. Its basically about the taste. Sometimes I need to adjust the grind, tamping pressure and quantity of coffee (three dimensions) to get the optimum cup, and that can mean going from a finer to a coarser grind or from a coarser to a finer grind depending on the beans. As the coffee ages I think it needs either to be finer or more heavily tamped.

Headspace, like tamping and a lot of other things, has different people with different opinions. Find an approach that works for you. In the case of my Elektra there is not necessarily any headspace but some people find it important.

Fresh beans (I am ok with beans up to a couple of weeks old) ground as needed by a decent grinder are critical. Its possible to get something acceptable out of somewhat stale beans but its more effort and more likely to produce a bad cup. Getting something nice out of preground coffee is even more difficult/unlikely.

Greg

A finer grind/lighter tamp is generally the better way to go. I'm down to a 15# tamp with a light polish.

Just for reference, this is more of a moderate, not light, tamp. The light-tamp folks are in the 5 lb range. Remember, not long ago 30# was considered "normal" or "standard".

Most important is to try to keep everything the same, i.e. grind, dose, tamp. And use fresh beans, also the same each week until you develop a routine.

Lastly, and especially with the Pavoni, develop a very regimented and standard shot routine to control the temperature. That is, start the machine, grind and be ready when the machine is ready. Pull one short "blank" of hot water through the PF (you can even skip this if you want cooler shots), then fill it and pull the shot. Shot temperature will increase with each successive shot, and after 3-4 max the Pavoni group will be too hot. You'll need to cool it down or turn off the machine and wait.

Once you've gotten where you want to be within the set routine, you can vary one thing at a time (beans, dose, temperature) to see what you like best.

PC

IMAWriter wrote:#!)...are yoiu grinding your beans fresh?

I am led to believe so. I went to a local shop and asked for the beans they use for their espressos. Since they go through so much, it should be somewhat fresh, correct?

IMAWriter wrote:If you have a grinder, which one? Whirly blades and cheap burr grinders such as a Braun, etc are only adequate for drip...if that.

I have a Kitchen Aid A-9 classic burr grinder that I modified.

I went to a local shop and asked for the beans they use for their espressos. Since they go through so much, it should be somewhat fresh, correct?

Many shops have coffee beans that are roasted long before they are used, beans stored in vacuum bags with one-way valves. This may help the coffee keep longer, but is no substitute for freshly roasted beans to be used on a lever machine.

Thinking way too much about this, but on a tamper that has a particular piston height, with a proper dose, why not put a lip on it so that you get the same results? Am I wrong in thinking this, and if so why?

Thinking way too much about this, but on a tamper that has a particular piston height, with a proper dose, why not put a lip on it so that you get the same results? Am I wrong in thinking this, and if so why?

This would work for the height, but would not allow control of the tightness of packing, based on volume, fluffiness of grind, age of beans, and so on. Both are important.

Hey grong, thanks for the solid replies. Do you use a scale when dosing by any chance? Should I?

coffeefrog wrote:Lyndon,
You don't say whether you like the coffee that you are making. Crema doesn't guarantee taste.

Greg, I'd have to say the shots I'm pulling taste OK to me, but I am a cappuccino more than than espresso drinker. I'd like to master pulling "drinkable" shots before I start trying to get great microfoam. I was trying to master one thing at a time.

Do you use a scale when dosing by any chance?

When I first got my Lusso three years ago I weighed my doses, somewhere around 14 grams per double basket. Weighing with a gram scale was for me a holdover from using my previous pump machine, an Isomac Zaffiro. After awhile I gave in to Peacecup's two scoop method, and this has proven sufficiently accurate, and in keeping with the spirit of the lever.

My routine:
I place two lightly rounded tablespoons of beans into the grinder, grind, then dose into a small plastic container. Then I pour these grounds (dose) into my double basket such that they are lightly heaping. Cover this with an upside-down single basket, toss the grounds upwards for excellent distribution (a.k.a. Mr. Brown's distribution method). Then level with a chopstick, and tamp.

With practice you find out just how much to scoop into your grinder in the first place, such that you grind enough with a minimum of waste.

Lately, instead of a straight across level, I scrape grounds off the top of the basket with the chopstick held at a slight angle, touching the edge of the basket and high in the center, while spinning the basket, to leave a very slightly heaping mini-dome. Then tamp. This has improved the packing of my puck at the edges and makes a better cup for me, at least for now!

grong wrote:[snipped]
After awhile I gave in to Peacecup's two scoop method, and this has proven sufficiently accurate, and in keeping with the spirit of the lever.

Interesting that for whatever reason some consider a lever as less than worthy of the same attention to detail as, lets say an HX machine. To me, MORE attention to detail is necessary when working with a lever. (I owned an Anita for 4 years.)
Yet you then went on to mention a fairly detailed method of distribution ...the plastic container, the shaking of the grind between an upside down basket and the basket with the grind, then the modified level, spinning the basket, the chopstick, etc.
What confuses me is the apparent relaxed attitude toward the amount of ground and how you measure it (2 scoops, which, BTW, I use when using my KYM manual) and the pretty complicated manner in which you distribute and level.
Each to their own, for sure, but FOR Me, (YMMV) the correct amount of coffee dosed into the PF is maybe the most important step to assure consistency with a lever pull. (obviously this also depends on the bean/blend you are using)
My real point is that even with a Caravel, as deceptively simple as she is, even a slightlyunderdosed shot gives less than satisfactory results.
I guess my main point is that pulling good lever shots, at least for me is way more challenging than when I was pulling them with my Anita. So that "in the spirit of a lever" as you say leaves me somewhat scratching my head.
BTW, I mean no disrespect here, just weighing in on a comment that threw me a curve.
Happy Father's Day to all.

What confuses me is the apparent relaxed attitude toward the amount of ground and how you measure it (2 scoops, which, BTW, I use when using my KYM manual) and the pretty complicated manner in which you distribute and level.

Dosing a bit above the basket, followed by Mr. Brown's distribution method and leveling, does provide an accurate dose. So in this case the gram scale became an extra step in the routine, exact and quantitative, but without adding value. For me it does feel more relaxed, yet accurate, but it seems to work! However, put me on a different machine and I think the whole learning curve may start anew. I will let you know this week, as a new member to the crew is on its way from Orphan Espresso.

Your explanation makes sense, and if it works for you, keep doing it.
Now I'm jealous. I see a really nice hand grinder (or Baratza Vario...or...don't tell me, another lever) coming your way. with envy.

The difference between a manual (Pavoni or Cremina) and the Ponte Vecchio spring lever is important. With a manual lever the exact dose, tamp, bean, is the ONLY way too keep things consistent, because the one's arm naturally adjusts to the pressure when pulling the lever down. With my manual lever (Caravel), I prepare the puck so that I need to pull as hard as is comfortable and safe at all times. I suggest the same for beginning with the Pavoni (I mean, don't get a hernia or tip a hot boiler on yourself, but prepare so you have to pull firmly).

With the spring lever the pressure is more (but not totally) consistent. Its just a little easier to get good results without as much attention to replicating the puck exactly.

All that said, I think the simplest way to achieve hassle-free espresso nirvana with a home lever is to fill the basket so that when tamped it is just below where it touches the dispersion screen. The grind fineness will be determined by how much tamp pressure you decide on. I know there has been a lot of discussion on HB re: downdosing, and not filling the basket too much, but in my limited experience it doesn't apply that much to most home lever machines.

PC

I looked up your grinder, and it may be holding you back. I have no experience with it, but it is my understanding that the only kitchenaid grinder usable for espresso is the "proline" series. I'd encourage you to examine the output of the grinder and ensure the grind is of uniform size. There will be a good bit of "dust" that is produced by lower level grinders. Try to avoid using this (in some grinders it will stick together by static and can be scooped out). As far as being able to choke your machine - that is not a great test for whether the grinder is suitable for espresso. (if you want to know why, ask, but it's a little more than i want to type right now.

My honest opinion is that the grinder you have will hold you back. I don't know whether it is responsible for the lack of crema in your shots. I would suggest an upgrade of grinder regardless of whether or not you solve the crema issue.

The other probable cause of little crema is old beans. If you went to a coffee shop from which you have had good shots of espresso, then the beans are probably good. If they cannot pull a good shot of espresso from their beans, you may not be able to either. If they can pull a good shot of espresso, ask if they can grind you a half pound of coffee, go home and immediately pull some shots with it. This will enable you to isolate your grinder as the weak link. I would encourage you to pull the shots within 2 hours of them grinding the beans, though.

A better way to eliminate beans as a variable is to order a pound from intelligentsia, terroir, ecco cafe, or any other top tier roaster around the country.

One last thought - some people pull amazing looking crema on a lever machine because they want it to look good. They use beans that haven't rested properly and perhaps even have a large robusta component. In my experience, after the crema settles, you should be looking for about 1/4 to 1/2 inch on a manual lever machine. As the shot pulls, the entire shot should be mixed crema, which then settles out. As i've only got about 50 pulls on the gaggia factory, does anyone wish to comment on that?

Although there is a lot of discussion about dose, I would argue that if you don't have the beans and the grinder right, dose is not your problem. Dose is what I would call a second gen problem. Usually people starting out encounter issues from poor grinders or old beans. After they get those issues down, they may find their shots are still not right. New flaws crop up. And dose may be the culprit there. That said, the people talking about dose have a lot more lever experience than i do, so take that with a grain of salt.

It's really tough to diagnose this sort of thing over the internet. Put any of the people who have commented on this thread in the room with you, and we could probably say "Oh, it's ______". But if you're willing to continue chasing this issue, and want to put some time in, pictures would be helpful. One of the grind dumped out on the table as close to macro as you could get, and another of the completed shot would be what i would like to see.

I have to agree with Spencer here, on nearly everything, especially the grinder. I try not to "knock" someone's gear too much,(some folks take it personally, but most of us started with less than satisfactory grinders, trust me) but truth is, having experience with both manual lever and HX semi auto, the lever, especially La Pavoni's require a uniform dust free grind.
Again, as a cheap, yet truly wonderful fix, I wholeheartedly recommend a manual grinder, such as a PeDe, KyM, and older Zassenhaus, etc.
If electric is your want, a used Mazzer SJ (for me) is the ticket. More $$, but more compact and equally good grinding with a timer is the Baratza Vario. Covered this already, didn't I. Sorry for redundancy.

As the shot pulls, the entire shot should be mixed crema, which then settles out. As i've only got about 50 pulls on the gaggia factory, does anyone wish to comment on that?

I agree. You need a clear cup or glass to see this action, but for me this does correlate with the best tasting shots.

grong wrote:I agree. You need a clear cup or glass to see this action, but for me this does correlate with the best tasting shots.

+1
Though...I pulled a shot of my bud JonR10( he lets me call him "the 10-ster" Liquid Velvet blend that was 20 days old. I had been on a trip, so there was a bit left upon returning home.
It was still excellent, through the shot pulled a bit blacker than it did at 8 days.
Most folks with MCAL's report less crema but outstandingly complicated shots..that is, layers of distinct flavors easily discernible.