"mixed crema"

Okay—there is the crema on top after the shot settles, and then there is the "mixed crema" which occurs during the shot, mixing in and burbling throughout the black. I find the "mixed crema" a foreteller of liveliness. That's one thing I really look for when evaluating a pull. What's the official term for this mixed crema—mixed crema?

popeye wrote: But if you're willing to continue chasing this issue, and want to put some time in, pictures would be helpful.

Fair enough:


sorry about the marimekko shot glass - it was the only clear one I had.

I've tweaked the grinder - removing the set screw that worked as a stopper allowed me to wind the burrs completely together. I then backed them off, spinning the top burr by hand until they made no contact. Replaced the set screw and the grind above is what I now have. I think it may be too fine, as I'm not tamping that hard, but what do I know? I wouldn't be here if I knew what I was doing. LOL!

With that said, the grinder was cheap, matched my wife's mixer and if it those grinds I posted are inadequate, I can always use that grinder for my moka. I've contemplated buying the kyocera hand grinder, but was waiting to weigh all my options first. I really do appreciate everyone's help. Wait until I start trying to steam milk!!!

Looks like old beans. Do you know how many days ago they were roasted?

peacecup wrote:Looks like old beans. Do you know how many days ago they were roasted?

They never said and I couldn't tell, but I went and picked up some new beans last night that were roasted on the 18th. They clearly have oil on them, where the first ones didn't. How does that grind look to you?

Oily beans don't (necessarily) mean beans are fresh, in fact it's often the opposite...or they were just roasted real dark.

Thanks for the pictures! Unfortunately, it's difficult to tell grind quality in a picture, but it does help a little. Is it my imagination, or are there discernable differences between "large" and "small" grinds in your picture? Is your grind uniform, or are there pieces which are clearly larger?

The finished shot doesn't look undrinkable, but I would expect it to be flat and lifeless from old coffee. Diagnosing by eyeball is not the proper way to do things, but the crema is thin and pale, compared to what could be achieved with your machine.

If you've got some freshly roasted coffee, you're probably a little happier by now. However, i still suspect the grinder is holding you back. If the shop you bought the coffee from is able to grind you some, I suggest you take that home and use it within an hour or two. That will enable you to see the differences between your grinder and a commercial level grinder.

I'm not suggesting you need to go to a commercial level if you're trying to save money, but entry level espresso capable consumer grinders start at about $250 (I recommended the ascaso line to my brother, and I used a rancilio rocky for a while). My guess is that if you do get to pull a shot with well ground coffee, you'll immediately start saving. I don't expect you to make a serious financial commitment on the recommendation of one individual, so does anyone else have experience with the grinder shown and care to comment?

If you're unable to get some freshly roasted, freshly ground coffee from a local shop to compare grinders, and you're not sure the grinder is the issue, feel free to continue to ask questions and if you can get any better pics of the grind, post them here. I'm more than happy to help.

Try evaluating your grinds by feel rather than look. Does it feel like powdererd sugar, flour, sugar, salt, a mixture of these? In myopinion it should feel somewhere between flour and sugar and evenly so....no big rocks in it but even and consistent. Take a pinch between thumb and forefinger and rub it....does it feel a bit sticky? It should kindof stick to the fingers, give a coating so to speak, perhaps fill in your fingerprints so it feels greasy (not oily greasy, but dry lubricated). You should be able to shine the surface of the grinds...when you compress them they should stay that way and look like they have a crust of sorts. Is this all vaguely specific enough? I generally test the grind by feel as much as anything.

popeye wrote:If the shop you bought the coffee from is able to grind you some, I suggest you take that home and use it within an hour or two. That will enable you to see the differences between your grinder and a commercial level grinder.

This sounds like it is my most logical next step.

popeye wrote:My guess is that if you do get to pull a shot with well ground coffee, you'll immediately start saving. I don't expect you to make a serious financial commitment on the recommendation of one individual, so does anyone else have experience with the grinder shown and care to comment?

I pretty much know what grinder I'd like, but the thought of getting a hand grinder keeps crossing my mind. It would really make me one with the machine. At least that's how I feel.

popeye wrote:If you're unable to get some freshly roasted, freshly ground coffee from a local shop to compare grinders, and you're not sure the grinder is the issue, feel free to continue to ask questions and if you can get any better pics of the grind, post them here. I'm more than happy to help.

Thanks so much - it is greatly appreciated! I'm usually a quick learner, but watching videos on youtube isn't really cutting it. All I'm seeing is fantastic crema. What I'm not seeing is every other variable that makes using a lever an art form.

popeye wrote:If the shop you bought the coffee from is able to grind you some, I suggest you take that home and use it within an hour or two. That will enable you to see the differences between your grinder and a commercial level grinder.

This sounds like it is my most logical next step.

This sounds good, except that the grind needs to be custom tailored to your specific machine for a quality result.

orphanespresso wrote:Try evaluating your grinds by feel rather than look. Does it feel like powdererd sugar, flour, sugar, salt, a mixture of these? In myopinion it should feel somewhere between flour and sugar and evenly so....no big rocks in it but even and consistent. Take a pinch between thumb and forefinger and rub it....does it feel a bit sticky? It should kindof stick to the fingers, give a coating so to speak, perhaps fill in your fingerprints so it feels greasy (not oily greasy, but dry lubricated). You should be able to shine the surface of the grinds...when you compress them they should stay that way and look like they have a crust of sorts. Is this all vaguely specific enough? I generally test the grind by feel as much as anything.

Sounds like what I have to a tee (not so much the dry lubricated feeling, but everything else), which leads us to peacecup's observation that the beans are old. I've found a local guy that roasts on Wednesdays and will deliver on Thursdays. I'm going to give him a try, and in the mean time decide if I'm going to buy that Kyocera hand grinder you sell.

grong wrote:This sounds good, except that the grind needs to be custom tailored to your specific machine for a quality result.

True...

I wish there were some leverheads that were local to me.

I just watched a couple of videos with Orphan Espresso pulling some shots on commercial machine after grinding on the Kyocera http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-DxLqJZ ... re=channel, and the shots looked beautiful.

I received my Pavoni today from OE, and I think you will be very happy, KnowGood, when you have control over your coffee freshness and your grind.

It sounds like you have found a good local roaster. The day after roasting is probably going to produce a green tasting shot, but on day two you should be good to go.

grong wrote:This sounds good, except that the grind needs to be custom tailored to your specific machine for a quality result.

I agree that dialing in the grind for the current condition of the machine is optimum. However, for evaluating the quality of a <$100 grinder vs. a commercial grind (or even prosumer grind), getting some pre-ground coffee from a shop would be useful. If the shop is using freshly roasted beans, chances are they have their machines roughly dialed in.

So, while you could not tweak the grind to produce an optimum shot, you can still control dosage, and with a lever, pressure. Control over these two variables should enable a pull of sufficient quality to evaluate the grinder.

At least, that's my line of thinking. When i was new to espresso i would have been more willing to spend $5 on freshly roasted, pre-ground (by the shop, at the time of sale) coffee to evaluate my grinder, rather than spending $250 bucks by the recommendation of some people on the internet. Or, i should say, prior to the spending of $250 to buy a grinder. We tend to sink more money into hobbies as time progresses - hence, upgraditis - because we've seen the results so far and can make the decision that it's worth it to continue with better equipment. Still, you see people taking steps with their upgrades, rather than leaps, because of this very reason. (unless they have a lot of cash).

Very well put Popeye, on the upgraditis angle, which we all have in one form or another. We went through a period of downgraditis which actually turned out to be upgradeitis but in an odd way, when we went from out prosumer hx machine to a La Peppina then to a hand grinder from a series of Rockys and used Mazzers and whatnot, But what we thought was a downgrade of hardware turned out to be an upgrade in espresso quality, and enjoyment. We only then realized what we had been missing as far a flavour and just what was possible in a home setup with what at the time was a minimum investment since we sold our prosumer and came out ahead all around.
The La Pavoni is a great little machine and does it all....we have gravitated to spring levers vs manuals but really can appreciate that feeling with a manual lever when the pressure catches just right and you steer the lever through the sweet spot....very gratifying....with a spring lever much of the mental excercise is factoring all of the grind and dose variables, getting the temperature just right, and watching the crema roll out of the spouts....pretty much a similar feeling but not as tactile as the manual.
And Popeye, nice that you recognize this clearly as a hobby, helps keep perspective since sometimes it seems more like an obsession, but they could be the same thing!

Doug, as all too many gave discovered, a "hobby" like can quickly obliterate all thoughts of career, family, and such. Not that I've been there, of course.
Coffee, on the other hand, is truly an obsession, nee a passion, yet one that can be shared with friends family, teachers (as in bribes for grades, etc)
Popeye is indeed correct (IMO) to have the OP take home a bit of pgrofessioanlly ground coffee, if only for a comparison, perhaps under a good magnifying glass.
I've been hitting a beautiful sweet spot with my singles. That smooth "groove" as the lever descends like a dull knife through butter. You feel the resistance, but it's there to help the pace maintain. Awesome.



BTW...I left out the most important word in my treatise...GOLF...I meant a "hobby such as GOLF"
Sorry.

I'm sorry, but did I read that right...."like a dull knife through butter"??? Naw, must be my imagination..I think I must be checking these posts too late in the day....all the variables....knife size, butter hardness, ambient temperature, exact level of dullness.....we found 128 emails today that had gotten sported off into another file on our server and we have spent the day apologizing and slogging through them more or less like a dull knife through butter as a matter of fact.

OK, a slightly warmed dull knife. I just meant slowly, steady with no sudden speed ups.

KnowGood wrote: and in the mean time decide if I'm going to buy that Kyocera hand grinder you sell.

Well, i went ahead and ordered the Kyocera last week. Should be here any day now. Well see how things go.

EUREKA! Used the Kyocera this morning and pulled off a much more improved shot with twice as much crema if not more than any of my previous ones. Second shot wasn't so great. The grind was too fine, even though it was the same setting as the first, and i choked it. As the machine gets hotter, does the grind need to be adjusted?

glad to hear it. In my experience, unless the machine was really cold (less than 175 degrees) the rate of pour won't change significantly with temperature. If you're not using a bottomless portafilter, you may have had some unnoticed channeling on the first shot. How did it look?