Hi there,

I've been trying to pull shots with my Pavoni but can't seem to get one with good body and crema. In order to try and diagnosis the problem I brought it to work and compared it with our La Pavoni Professional, which I can pull really tasty shots with. Shots from the newer La Pavoni Professional had great body and a good amount of crema, and the shots from mine were flat a bit bitter and had no body. The steps to make the shots were essentially the same except I gave my Pavoni 20 minutes to come to temp and the Pro 15 mins. The biggest thing I noticed between the two machines is when I pull up on the lever on the Pro, there is a lot of pressure, while on mine, there is very very little pressure. This makes my co-worker think I need to replace the gaskets. From this brief description, can anyone tell me why my machine is not making good espresso?

Sounds similar to the problem I am having -- I was unable to get serious pressure on my pre-millenium EPC until I set the power level to "II".
No matter how long I heat up on "I", I don't get good steam pressure.

If you think about it, when the lever + piston are in the down position, the resistance being offered is basically equal to the steam pressure being provided by the siphon that lets water into the grouphead when the piston is fully lifted up.. if you're feeling less resistance, then there must be less pressure being provided by the boiler.

try running the EPC on "II" and as the steam starts to increase in ferocity, start testing the lever to see if you get more resistance as you push it up.

When I first got it I did do it that way but the shots always tasted burnt so I switched to just using the "I" setting and waiting for it to heat up. Did you wait for the pressurestat to start blowing before setting it to the lower setting? I've pulled better shots just heating it on the espresso setting so I've been trying to work with it like that. Does it sound like my machine needs to he fixed or do I need to work on my routine?

I just posted a video showing how much water comes out of my La Pavoni when it's on the "I" setting. Here's the link, if you'd like to compare:

La Pavoni Europiccola - is this much steam normal? [video]

What I usually do is turn the machine on and let it heat up for about 5 minutes on the "II" setting, then when steam starts coming out of the safety valve, I flip it down to "I" and leave it. I'm able to get very good espressos from it.

Also, are you using the same bean on both machines? I presume you are, but I just wanted to check. The bean can have a big impact on stuff like crema production and body, etc.

If you are lifting the lever and not getting much water, it could be that your lower boiler element is bad and/or the wires under there are not making good contact.

Ray

Gravedigga wrote:When I first got it I did do it that way but the shots always tasted burnt so I switched to just using the "I" setting and waiting for it to heat up. Did you wait for the pressurestat to start blowing before setting it to the lower setting? I've pulled better shots just heating it on the espresso setting so I've been trying to work with it like that. Does it sound like my machine needs to he fixed or do I need to work on my routine?

New water; empty boiler each time - when cool - so, store Pavoni empty of water. Gasket should be clean - use a q-tip and a bar cloth - any cloth. Fill boiler with water such that it is still visible in sight class, but near the top.

A. Turn to II - when the pressure is well built up, open the steam wand for 30 seconds to bleed the false pressure.

B. Still on II. Allow pressure to build again. When it is fully up, again, turn to I.

C. 14-16g of coffee (have a scale?). Coffee should be less than one week old, grind should be exceptionally fine. Fresh coffee and a great grinder are the two biggest faults of newbies (including myself, years ago).

D. Tamp

E. Insert basket into PF and PF into Pavoni.

F. Slowly Raise lever; keep in up position for 5-10 seconds (pre-infusion)

G. Slowly Lower lever 1/3 to 1/2 distance. (until resistance met - no espresso should pour)

H. Return lever to up position for 2 seconds.

I. Lower till blonding (resistance should be met sooner than on first pull).

J. Enjoy (do not preheat cup).

Keep in mind that body and mouth-feel are also a function of the roast of the coffee.

-phillip

On point 'C' ... on the pre-millenium EPC, in the provided double basket, I can't dose more than 10-12g (with my vario) before the tamped grounds push against the dispersion screen and interfere with me getting the portafilter locked into the grouphead.

am i doing something wrong?

On point 'C' ... on the pre-millenium EPC, in the provided double basket, I can't dose more than 10-12g (with my vario) before the tamped grounds push against the dispersion screen and interfere with me getting the portafilter locked into the grouphead.

am i doing something wrong?

I've never really paid much attention to weight, although I have been meaning to check it one of these days. The method I use is to grind and then dump the grinds into the double shot basket. Then sweep cross the top with my finger to level it. Then do a light tamp, knock the sides, then do a medium tamp (maybe 10 to 20 lbs). That should push the level of the coffee down to about 7 mm below the edge of the basket, which will give you enough room to put the portafilter into the group head and lock it down no problem.

If you are using so much coffee that the tamped down amount mashes up into the dispersion screen of the group head, then you need to back off the amount of coffee you are using. Keep in mind that the La Pavoni portafilter is only 49mm or 51 mm, not 58 mm. Like I say, I don't pay any attention to grams of coffee. Just do what works best for the machine.

Mainly the trick to making good espresso on the La Pavoni boils down to the grind and the tamp (and also using a slight pre-infusion). If you have to pull the lever too hard, then make the grind a bit more coarse and/or ease up on the tamp. I've had the best luck with a lighter tamp, as opposed to a super hard tamp. I usually tamp between 5 and maybe 20 lbs or so. Not the 30 or more lbs that a lot of people recommend. I have just found that promotes channeling too much.

Having a bottomless portafilter makes a world of difference also. You can monitor how the extraction starts, which is very helpful. You can also monitor it throughout the pull, which helps quite a bit as far as fine tuning the grind/tamp. If it's foamy, then the grind usually needs to be a hair finer and/or the tamp needs a few extra pounds of force.

A fresh, high quality espresso blend is also very important. Using store bought beans will usually result in a thin crema in my experience, or a watery shot. Also, I don't pay too much attention to time. When I pull shots, I usually gauge the finish by the color of the extraction. If it's 15 seconds, fine. If it's 30 seconds, fine. You can always adjust the time by adjusting the tamp/grind.

Like I say, it's all about the grind/tamp on the La Pavoni, at least that's been my experience. Once you get those adjustments in the ball park, then the amazing shots will start rolling out. Just be aware that the difference between a terrible shot and a great shot can be a very, very tiny adjustment on your grinder or your tamping.

Ray

gegtik wrote:On point 'C' ... on the pre-millenium EPC, in the provided double basket, I can't dose more than 10-12g (with my vario) before the tamped grounds push against the dispersion screen and interfere with me getting the portafilter locked into the grouphead.

am i doing something wrong?

10-12g? Hmm - that seems awful suspicious. Are you using an accurate scale - say +/- 0.1g? If so, then I'd ask if you are using a single basket. However, I haven't used/seen one of the singles, so I can't say much about it.

About advice. If you go through the search function here, you'll notice that I haven't told you anything that hasn't be said over and over again. A lot of the regulars won't even respond to such a query as this one. However, I've been where you are. Take a look at previous posts: fresh coffee; grind; dose accurately. For now, try grinding finer.

Here are two videos that may help you. The first is from Doug and Barb of Orphan Espresso - god status of lever machines as far as I'm concerned. If this url doesn't connect, then google "pavoni vario" and it should pop up. Doug says something about the grind setting on his Vario, but I didn't pay much attention. Notice that he doesn't tamp very hard. I'm in Doug's corner on this one, but that's another thread. As for the shot, I thought it was a bit fast, and I definitely would have shut it down far sooner - but that's my taste for ristretto.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6322034342348018785#

This next video should be required video for all Pavoni newbies. If for nothing else, it shows the learning curve, and how quick it can be. Noticed that she tamped lightly. If this ulr doesn't work, go to youtube and search Seattle Coffee Gear, Learning to Use a La Pavoni Manual Espresso Machine. If you want to know about steaming and forth, go to Orphan Espresso and watch the video on their website.

http://www.youtube.com/user/SeattleCoffeeGear?feature=chclk#p/search/2/Eec7n-Owuok

-phillip

Thanks philip, I appreciate any guidance on the matter

phillip canuck wrote:10-12g? Hmm - that seems awful suspicious. Are you using an accurate scale - say +/- 0.1g? If so, then I'd ask if you are using a single basket. However, I haven't used/seen one of the singles, so I can't say much about it.

I can understand your skepticism, you might think I'm eyeballing from what I wrote. I say 10-12g because it depends on the age of the coffee. I have a +/- 1g scale at home and a .1g in the mail... I've gotten as high as 12g, other times 12g seems to make it impossible to lock in my PF.

According to my caliper, what I assume is a double basket (since it doesn't funnel the water into a smaller screen) is approx 21.5mm deep.

I use beans less than a week old, roasted by a local roaster called The Coffee Tree here in toronto.
It might help to be as specific as possible about my regimen; I weigh the beans out beforehand on my scale, dump only those beans into the vario hopper.
I hold the basket (without PF handle) directly under the exit hole (?) on the vario, rotating the basket around to try to even out the dosage. I'm guessing about 8g in, the grinds start to pile up above the level of the basket, so I stop the vario, and tap the basket on the table once or twice to compact the grounds. Then I grind the rest of the beans into the basket, and tap down onto the table again, after which I take the default plastic tamper (I don't have a nice tamper for this machine yet) and lightly press down on the grinds to lock them into place (I measured this at maybe 3lb of pressure).

at this point there are maybe 8mm of headspace. When I try to lock in the PF, it doesn't seem to want to lock in; maybe this is operator error, and the angle at which the EPC accepts a PF is really finicky when you have a full PF basket?

I'll try to post a video once I get more beans -- I've had the flu this week and coffee's sort of been off the menu

Thanks for the video links as well!

- Craig

Craig,

When it comes to good espresso, I have found that you should typically be using an espresso blend, not just a single bean roast. Even if it's very fresh, in many cases a single bean will not work out quite as well as a roast for pulling great shots. I mean, you can get a decent shot of espresso from a single coffee bean that is properly roasted, but using a mixture of several bends tends to work better as far as the crema and body of the shots go.

Most good, local roasters have their own espresso blend, which is generally made up of several different beans mixed together. I've had the most luck with blends, as opposed to trying to find a single bean that works well all the time. Many single bean roasts work fine for coffee (i.e. fench press), but usually a blend of several types of beans works a little better when it comes to pulling shots of espresso, especially if you want that rich, thick body and crema.

At least that's been my experience thus far. When I first started out, I was using this or that specific type of coffee and not really having great luck with my shots (I was also using a cheap $100 pump driven machine with a pressurized portafilter basket). It wasn't until I started trying different espresso blends that I started having better luck as far as my shots. Using and learning the La Pavoni made a big difference also of course.

Ray