New owner of La Pavoni Professional - Page 3

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homeburrero
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#21: Post by homeburrero »

Tom@Steve'sEspresso wrote:Hey remember that when you lift the lever handle to purge the boiler of air, you are only purging water first because the dipper tube is submerged. You'll still have the same density of air but it will have more space because a quantity of water has been removed from the boiler after lifting. Use the steam wand to purge air directly.
For sure, the air in the boiler needs to be purged of air as the machine comes to pressure. On the Stradivari this is probably done by the anti-vacuum valve (inside the safety valve assembly) but no harm making sure by opening the steam wand.

The purpose of the lever lift is to blow out air trapped in the top of the group, not the boiler.
Pat
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Dev (original poster)
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#22: Post by Dev (original poster) replying to homeburrero »

Although I have the anti-vacuum valve I'm still purging and lifting the handle with good results I might add. I also notice that the pressure stays a lot more stable and doesn't drop as fast before.

I just received my temperature strip from Orphanespresso just as a guide to let me know the head is up to temp. I understand it may not be a reliable measurement but at least it will let me see a visual representation of the head coming up to temperature with every short stroke.

My two hole steam tip experiment was worse then the one hole bullet tip. It did heat up the milk faster but there was no visible movement of the milk. Macro froth was still present.
I'm going to seal and test the one hole tip for leaks then I will keep practicing. I have been there before with the Gaggia and over time I just got better at it and this just might be the same case where I will slowly stumble into the right technique.

As far as getting the coffee hot on the first pull it's no longer a problem thanks to you guys. My last extraction was a little hotter with less crema but it was just as tasty as this mornings shot.

Tom@Steve'sEspresso
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#23: Post by Tom@Steve'sEspresso »

Anti-vacuum valve...I missed that detail :mrgreen:
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wkmok1
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#24: Post by wkmok1 »

On my LP-S, the anti-vacuum valve is not completely effective. When I purge into a cup of water, I get a fair amount of large bubbles before transitioning to stream. I don't think the air is from the wand because I get far fewer bubbles if I purge again. Also, if I don't purge, the group, with empty PF attached, settles to around 185F after an hour or more. If I do purge, the equilibrium temp reaches 194F.

I am a bit surprised by my observations. Once the water inside the boiler starts boiling, the steam should drive out the air very quickly. The valve must close upon a very small positive pressure inside the boiler. Anyway, I end up purging every start-up.

Winston
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homeburrero
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#25: Post by homeburrero »

wkmok1 wrote:Also, if I don't purge, the group, with empty PF attached, settles to around 185F after an hour or more. If I do purge, the equilibrium temp reaches 194F.
That's interesting. That symptom does indicate that you still have air in the boiler, causing it to equilibrate at a boiler temp lower than what you expect with pure water and steam. Bleeding off steam with the wand would be a good idea in your case, maybe a good thing to advise in general. (I haven't seen this, but my experience with Pavoni AV valves is with the Romantica and the Gaggia Factory, which are in the boiler cap - a little different than the ones in the safety valve.)

Another way to detect if you have air (so called 'false pressure') in the system is that you'll see a fairly large pressure drop after opening the wand.
Pat
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wkmok1
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#26: Post by wkmok1 »

I only have the smaller version of the LP-S, so I don't have a meter to show pressure.

I am wondering if there is a small pocket of air in the group that is impossible to get rid of. If group is full of air, say after maintenance, lifting the lever to the top will flush all the air below the exit hole in the sleeve. Air above the hole will not get swept out. Over time, will that air leak out around the piston rod? Perhaps the small amount of air remaining does not add appreciably to "false pressure"?
Winston

OldNuc
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#27: Post by OldNuc »

There is nothing false about it, the pressure is real and it does affect the pressure stat and low pressure relief. Dumping water vapor at ~212F into the group is not going to remove the "air" either, it does heat the group though. If the machine is properly mechanically adjusted there is no significant air above the piston and the top of the boiler provides adequate volume to contain any trapped air. The air/gases trapped in the ground coffee is an entirely different subject though.

A simple experiment.

Fill boiler with fresh water to the top of sight glass and raise pressure. When at temperature crack open stem wand and blow down boiler until a nice cloud of water vapor appears and water spitting stops, close valve. Wait until boiler is back at pressure and repeat. If a Maximo/Minimo Pavoni just let it sit at minimo for a period of time.

Lock in cold portafilter with coffee. Raise lever to full up and wait. After 10 to 15 seconds very lightly slowly lower lever maybe 1" or slightly less while listening at side of boiler, hear the gurgle? Lift lever, wait 5 seconds or so and repeat until you no longer hear the gurgle, now the group should be full of hot water and no air.

Minor adjustments required for machine vintage are required.

Dev (original poster)
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#28: Post by Dev (original poster) »

I adjusted the pressurestat today and all of my problems have been solved. I also discovered a new trick to tame the head temperature in case it overheats.

I opened up the bottom of the machine and turned the pressurestat exactly 120 degrees just on a course guesstimate to get the shut off at .85 bar.
The good thing about this newer version of pressurestat is that it's not glued when it is set at the factory so it's user adjustable and easy to do. It would have been nice if there was mechanical linkage that extended outside the unit but I suppose it's not really necessary.

I fired up the machine and achieved what I believed to be 8.75 bar which I felt was good enough so no further adjustment needed.
The warming flush to heat the group was a bit better then before working its way gradually upto 70C. I decided to hold off on the short stroke pumps until I grinded the coffee. After adding the coffee to the portafilter I did one short stroke and my head temperature went up to 80c and was slowly creeping up to 85C which I thought would be ideal to start at considering the boiler water would be hotter since the adjustment. Locked in the portafilter and pulled a golden shot as good as this mornings.

Hit the steam and this time it was so much more powerful it whistled a little. I finally got the milk to move and no more macro foam. I was finally able to stretch the milk. It wasn't latte art quality froth but a vast improvement. I guess the steam power was just too anemic before.

I don't have the high end temp strips and the 90C head temperature was lit up strong and remained, so it made me wonder if I may have overheated the group which is something I will have to find out.
I'm the only one that uses the machine so overheating for multiple shots is not an issue but I think I figured out a way to rapidly bring down the group head temps quickly. By using the crushed function on the ice machine I can fill the portafilter and then place it in the group to act as a heat sink. It worked too well and brought the temperature down rapidly to a point where it may need another short stroke before another pull.

I have had very little time with the La Pavoni but I can honestly say that I had a lot more difficulty with getting it right with the Gaggia pump machine. I want to thank everyone for their insightful comments and I'm happy to be part of this lever group. :D

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drgary
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#29: Post by drgary »

Congratulations!

To cool the group, rinse the portafilter under the sink or dip it in room temperature water. Lock it in for about a minute and you may find it's the exact amount of cooling you wanted.
Gary
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What I WOULD do for a good cup of coffee!

Dev (original poster)
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#30: Post by Dev (original poster) replying to drgary »

Thanks Gary. If it wasn't for all of the contributions from you and others I probably would have been frustrated.
I have to admit I had to do quiet a bit of homework here to understand the machine but it paid off.
Those temperature strips really work well as a reference.