Molykote 111 and/or Super Lube Silicone Lubricating Grease with Syncolon and/or OKS 1110

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Katzer
Posts: 134
Joined: 7 years ago

#1: Post by Katzer »

Hi all,

While I am waiting to tube of Molykote 111 to arrive (in about 2 weeks), I already all the parts for my La Pavoni.
It included a dollop of Super Lube Silicone Lubricating Grease with Syncolon.

http://www.super-lube.com/silicone-lubr ... zp-53.html

I recall reading Robert's (rpvalis) note about different lubes shouldn't be mixed.
So my question is:
Are these two similar ?
If later down the road I wish to re-lube my machine, can I apply Molykote 111 on top of the parts or should I first clean off the old existing lube and only then apply Molykote 111.

I read somewhere here that OKS 1110 is the same as Dow 111, or at least very similar. Can it be verified ?
How can one tell from the product description if two lubes are compatible with each other?

Thanks,

Erez

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rpavlis
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#2: Post by rpavlis »

I suspect any poly siloxane (silicone) lubricant would not create problems with others, but almost all are "capped" methyl siloxane polymers. The problem with other types of lubricants is that they are not soluble in one another.

One does NOT want to use hydrocarbon greases with O ring seals and piston seals on espresso machines because they can (and generally will) cause the polymers to swell similar to what happens when gasoline is in contact with rubber. Siloxane polymers are peculiar materials in many respects, they owe much of their viscosity to polymer chain entanglement rather than strong interaction between chains. They can have very high molecular weights and still not be rigid solids. "Silicone oil" has a remarkably high molecular weight for a fluid material.

Siloxanes are NOT good lubricants for metal against metal surfaces. Siloxane greases tend to flow too much. You need to use heavy hydrocarbon greases for the metal to metal surfaces on espresso handle pivots and pins. It only takes a tiny bit, but lubrication is very important.

If one place silicone oil with high molecular hydrocarbon oils they will form two layers like mixing water and gasoline!

Katzer (original poster)
Posts: 134
Joined: 7 years ago

#3: Post by Katzer (original poster) »

Let's see how well I understood you.
rpavlis wrote:I suspect any poly siloxane (silicone) lubricant would not create problems with others, but almost all are "capped" methyl siloxane polymers. The problem with other types of lubricants is that they are not soluble in one another.
So Dow 111, OKS 1110, and Super Lube (above mentioned) are all siloxane greases.

What does "capped" methyl siloxane polymers? how does it affect the performance or choice?
rpavlis wrote: One does NOT want to use hydrocarbon greases with O ring seals and piston seals on espresso machines because they can (and generally will) cause the polymers to swell similar to what happens when gasoline is in contact with rubber. Siloxane polymers are peculiar materials in many respects, they owe much of their viscosity to polymer chain entanglement rather than strong interaction between chains. They can have very high molecular weights and still not be rigid solids. "Silicone oil" has a remarkably high molecular weight for a fluid material.



Siloxanes are NOT good lubricants for metal against metal surfaces. Siloxane greases tend to flow too much. You need to use heavy hydrocarbon greases for the metal to metal surfaces on espresso handle pivots and pins. It only takes a tiny bit, but lubrication is very important.

If one place silicone oil with high molecular hydrocarbon oils they will form two layers like mixing water and gasoline!
So hydrocarbon greases are good for say, the lever joint which is metal to metal - correct?

Which of the brand/product names are popular hydrocarbon greases? which one would you recommend?

In which category Olive Oil (recommended here https://londiniumespresso.com/blog/blog ... hi-o-rings) belongs?
What about petroleum based greases ? petroleum jelly?

Thank you so much for making this clear!

Erez

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rpavlis
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#4: Post by rpavlis »

When these polymers are made they generally have an -OH, hydroxyl group, on the end. This is chemically reactive, so the -OH group is treated to convert the OH group into a trimethylsilyl group to make it inert and thus "cap" the reactive end of the chain.

Olive oil is a mixture of naturally occuring glycerine esters of "fatty" acids. It contains lots of oxygen and is different from hydrocarbon greases. Metal to metal surfaces are often lubricated with hydrocarbon greases that contain other materials that would be lubricants on their own right. An example is molybdenum disulphide greases. There are other things that can be added too. Note that these things are NOT suitable for lubricating polymer seals. (Including rubber.)

It is a good idea to clean off old lubricant in most cases.

I have always regarded olive oil as an extremely good ingredient in food rather than as a lubricant!

Katzer (original poster)
Posts: 134
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#5: Post by Katzer (original poster) »

I just realized another aspect: "is it food safe?"

Molykote 111 is the only one that is both NSF 51 and 61 certified, meaning it can be in contact with drinking water (61) or food (51).

There are other manufacturers that product NSF 61 certified silicone based greases, though few (google "nsf 61 silicone lubricant").

The above mentioned Super Lube has NSF H1 certification, which is for intermediate food contact.
http://info.nsf.org/USDA/letters/136743.pdf

OKS 1110 is (also) only NSF 11.
https://www.oks-germany.com/ecomaXL/ind ... etail/304/

it is worth to note that I learnt of OKS 1110 here Building the Ultimate La Pavoni Europiccola (reply #48) where it was referred to as a " a perfect clone of Dow 111".

Each one is of course free to choose whatever they like according to their comfort level. My instincts tell me to wait a little bit and wait for the 22nd when I get my shipment of Molykote 111.

Comet to think about it, I think if I ever buy a used machine in the future again, I will probably take it apart, clean off the grease in the areas that touch water and re-apply with a NSF 61 certified grease.

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yakster
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#6: Post by yakster »

FYI, I've always heard that Molykote 111 and Dow 111 are identical, just differently branded for different markets.
-Chris

LMWDP # 272

Katzer (original poster)
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#7: Post by Katzer (original poster) replying to yakster »

Dow Corning is the name of the company that produces Molykote 111.
So the same names Dow 111, Molykote 111 , refer to the same product.