In preparation to getting the LI, I would like to hear recommendation/suggestions on what water I should be using to prevent scale build up and at the same time have a good tasting cup. Initially, my water setup will be used to refill the machine from the top, but long term (3-6 months) it needs to support the machine being plumbed as I love the idea of a completely silent operation.

The attached picture shows what I have a available via tap water and current RO system we use at home for drinking (I also use this water for my current HX machine mixed with some filtered water from the refrigerator).



The alkalinity and hardness were tested using Aquarium Pharma GH/KH test kit, and the results are in the ball park to what I've gotten with test trips from Chris Coffee. Another confirmation that the test kit results are reasonable is the results from the Volvic water, which should be in the 75-85ppm range.

As you can see, my tap water is fairly soft, so right now I'm leaning towards getting a standard 10" housing filter with 1 micron filter, and 1 or 2 carbon filters and skip the softener all together. thoughts?

Based on my results, I don't see the point of getting a softener or buying bottled water.

Also, I don't know what to do with the Alkalinity data. Is it useful? and for what?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated

So I've been reading a bit on Alkalinity, but my head is spinning (as I went back to the insanely long Water FAQ)

I still don't know if I have an issue with my tap water alkalinity being higher than general hardness.

First let me start asking this question, if I use filtered Tap water (sediment + carbon), are those ratios acceptable for taste and to avoid scale?

there are others here who can answer your question more ably than i, however my understanding is that you only need to concern yourself with temporary, or carbonate, hardness as only this aspect precipitates out when the water is heated.

with a carbonate hardness value of 89.5mg/L you are about as high as you can go before you hit issues with precipitation/scale in you boiler (which in itself if dependant on how hot you run your boiler), but i think you will be ok

the only thing you may want to do is check that the water coming out of your tap does in fact have a carbonate hardness value of 89.5mg/L

for example, here in London the temporary/carbonate hardness varies from 290mg/L at the factory to 240mg/L at home - both hard enough to require softening, but also illustrating the point that there are quite significant differences between the two supplies

unless you are fortunate enough to have particularly sparkling clean town supply water it is likely that you will taste some benefit from adding a carbon filter before connecting to the espresso machine - just be sure to change it at least annually and preferably 6mthly as an unchanged filter is worse than no filter

reiss.

Based solely on information sent me from Volvic about a year ago and the "plug & crank" formulations in Jim S's FAQ on water, I don't agree with your Volvic numbers. Volvic comes from one source and the numbers they provided me are as follows:

Calcium: 11.5 mg/L
Magnesium: 8 mg/L
Sodium: 11.6 mg/L
Potassium: 6.2 mg/L
Bicarbonates: 71 mg/L
Sulfates: 8.1 mg/L
Chlorides: 13.5 mg/L
Nitrate (N): 1.4 mg/L
Silica: 31.7 mg/L
Fluoride: 0.2 mg/L
Lead: not detected
Arsenic: not detected
Copper: not detected
Zinc: not detected
Neutrally Balanced pH = 7.0

Excerpted from the Insanely Long FAQ on Water:

Finally, bottled waters mostly report their minerals as straight elemental mg/l or ppm rather than mg/l CaCO3 equivalents. To get the alkalinity, multiply the bicarbonate by 0.82; to get hardness multiply the calcium by 2.5, the magnesium by 4.2, and add the two. If the water is fizzy, and bicarbonate level isn't stated; the alkalinity will equal the hardness after the water goes flat.

I was going to run out and get some Volvic but the source is closing around now . . . maybe tomorrow.

The SCAA recommendations on water are here: http://scaa.org/PDF/ST%20-%20WATER%20ST ... V2009A.pdf . I know of no one who has disagreed with these numbers. Reproduced here for convenience:

Reiss, thanks for the feedback.

Eric
Is Calcium Hardness = General Hardness? (I think GH is Calcium and Magnesium).I think I'm within or below range with my GH value to the SCAA recommended value

What can I do to lower the Alkalinity from ~90 to 40?

My tap PH is higher than 7, but I'm assuming once I adjust Alkalinity my PH will be lowered

It would be great if you can test the volvic water

Thanks again

Is Calcium Hardness = General Hardness? (I think GH is Calcium and Magnesium).I think I'm within or below range with my GH value

As I am neither a chemist nor a chemical engineer, my most proper answer is "I don't know". However, my instincts tell me "yes".

I am off to the Volvic source in the AM and will head to the laboooooooratory in the PM. As you are learning and as I have learned (and still learning), this business of water is complex. Heck - just do a "Google" on "Nestle Waters" and be amazed - they have more brands than Kelloggs does cereals.

there are two types of hardness in water; permanent hardness and alkalinity (also known as carbonate or temporary hardness)

the total of permanent hardness and temporary hardness is referred to as general or total hardness

alkalinity refers to the hardness derived mainly from carbonate and bicarbonate ions (almost always limited to calcium carbonate & magnesium carbonate) and directly reflects the buffering capacity of the water - i.e. how readily the pH of the water will shift/move

alkalinity is also called carbonate hardness or temporary hardness because it can be removed from the water by boiling the water, causing it to precipitate, which reduces the temporary hardness of the water (but the permanent hardness of the water is unaffected by boiling the water which is why you can forget about the permanent hardness readings for espresso machine purposes)

pH tends to move with temporary hardness, but it is not a one:one or linear relationship. i don't think it is necessary to dive into the chemistry for your purposes, other than to remember that you ideally want the pH of your water to be as close to 7 (neutral) as you can get

one of the key messages to take from Jim Schulman's seminal article is the danger to the life of your boiler if you opt for a water that has very low levels of temporary hardness. in this situation you are almost certainly going to have water that is acidic (e.g. pH 5 for example) to the extent that it will eat your boiler from the inside out over time - not ideal

water with very low levels of temporary hardness will also give you very bright/brassy/acidic espresso which the 3rd wave crew might cherish but i personally find unpleasant

the key message when setting up/choosing a water for your espresso machine is moderation; the need to shun the extremes of both very low and high levels of temporary hardness

i would also advise against the school of thought that says, ah, don't worry about limescale, just descale it now and then. i've never seen a machine that's been improved by descaling; descaling is tough on seals, fine waterways, any fine machining that is exposed to the internal water flow. limescale also forms in varying densities

some people on this forum are fortunate enough to be able to descale with lemon juice & vinegar - much of the limescale in the UK will laugh in the face of such delicate measures

on occasions the limescale formation is so dense that even strong acids are not effective as they are unable to penetrate the limescale deposit - in such instances the bulk of the deposit has to be chipped out with a cold chisel and the acid only used to remove the last remnants of the deposit. it also requires heat to increase the rate of the chemical reaction

erics wrote:The SCAA recommendations on water are here: http://scaa.org/PDF/ST%20-%20WATER%20ST ... V2009A.pdf . I know of no one who has disagreed with these numbers.

Depends whether the recommendations are based on ideal taste or preventing scale build up. I'd consider the target 4 grains of hardness too high if you want to prevent scaling. My well water hits the other target numbers pretty closely but I have to keep the Hardness between 2-3 grains to prevent scale build up. I use a mixing valve to add hard water back in after the softener cartridge to control the hardness level. As the cartridge ages & weakens I reduce the amount of hard water mixed in. If I forget to check towards the end of the cartridge life & the hardness creeps up to 4 or 5 grains I definitely will see scale build up on the steam boiler heating element & in our Zojirushi hot water dispenser.

Londinium Espresso wrote: some people on this forum are fortunate enough to be able to descale with lemon juice & vinegar - much of the limescale in the UK will laugh in the face of such delicate measures

For descaling small parts I use straight white vinegar but a heating element with hard scale build up goes in my bead blast cabinet. Two or three minutes of blasting removes more scale then a 24 hour soak in vinegar or citric acid solution.

Depends whether the recommendations are based on ideal taste or preventing scale build up.

I agree with that. To get a more complete picture of how the standards were developed, one needs to purchase the SCAA Water Quality Handbook: https://netforum.avectra.com/eweb/shopp ... 23a6866e7d . It is likely some of the best $35 I have spent.

There are some slight differences in terminology and numbers between the the handbook and the published standard . . . keep in mind that the handbook was published after the standard. The corresponding SCAA handbook numbers and terminology for water quality are as follows:

Interesting stuff, thanks to all. I have read and re-re-re-read Jim's FAQ, picking up a bit more each time. I'm not exactly Einstein here. Some of these explanations actually helped.
Question:
I have a great combo except for the fact my tap water is very pretty low in alkalinity/ I've been mixing with RO to hit my acceptable range. (tastes good as well)
Is there anything I could add to a pitcher of my combo to raise the alkalinity without messing with the taste?

A magic pill?
BTW, I Have a fairly sophisticated electronic tester, as well as the ubiquitous strips.