Lever multiple pull techniques - Page 3

December 1st, 2007, 7:27 pm

narc wrote:This journey into the lever world has been two steps forward and then one step backwards. Not sure where I'll end up

I have an idea where. You will continue to learn new things for years and years ad infinitum. One of the beautiful things about coffee and especially espresso is that even when you have a great deal of experience there are still nearly unlimited things to learn. To quote an oft used, but truthy cliche: it's not the destination that's important but the journey itself. Though I might alter it a bit. When the destination is good espresso, both are equally important!

Still feeling some lever envy of you narc. Two amazing machines sitting there at your beck and call! Lever jealousy, like all jealousy is a bad thing. The worst part is that it makes one want to crowd the entire kitchen with levers!

#22: Post by **RapidCoffee** » December 1st, 2007, 7:28 pm

Kaffee Bitte wrote:The harder the tamp and the firmer the puck the more likely that air being pulled up into the puck on an upstroke(downstroke for springs) will force its way through in the form of a crack in the puck. This crack WILL become a channel when you start the second pull. My experience with light tamps have been that I rarely if ever see the evidence of this in the puck after the shot is pulled. So do I have evidence, yes.

Makes sense. I haven't seen cracked pucks, but I quit doing multiple pulls fairly early on, when it became clear there was little to gain and potentially something to lose. La Pavoni is perfectly capable of achieving a normale double brew ratio with a single pull.

I'll question this conventional wisdom one last time, and then shut up. As I understand it, tamp pressure drops off drastically as depth increases in the puck. So the light vs. hard tamp really only impacts the top of the puck. After the grounds are infused with water from the first pull, they swell. At that point, how much difference does it make, whether the tamp was hard or light? It's possible that tamp pressure affects the first pull more than subsequent pulls.

Regardless, I repeated the previous experiment with a light tamp. This time I weighed the dose and each pull.

14g dose in double basket

Light tamp (weight of tamper), around 6mm below rim.

First pull, with preinfusion: yum! Brew ratio is 60%, straddling the normale-ristretto interface.

Second pull: yuck! Bitter dishwater.

The slightly greater volume in the second pull is probably due to fully infused grounds plus a few extra drops between pulls.

Tastewise, any subtle differences between hard and light tamps were subsumed by the gross differences between the first and second pulls. My conclusion: for La Pavoni, overextraction is a far bigger factor than tamp pressure when it comes to multiple pulls. I do not recommend multiple pulls on this machine.

December 1st, 2007, 7:46 pm

RapidCoffee wrote:Second pull: yuck! Bitter dishwater.

LOL! This was my initial reaction when I tried the second pull, and it continued to be for about two months of the learning curve. Burned through an astonishing amount of coffee on said learning curve.

RapidCoffee wrote:Tastewise, any subtle differences between hard and light tamps were subsumed by the gross differences between the first and second pulls. My conclusion: for La Pavoni, overextraction is a far bigger factor than tamp pressure. I do not recommend multiple pulls on this machine.

To be fair here, you are tasting these pulls, not as one double shot, but separately. Are you removing the cup right when you see evidence of blonding or completing the pull and removing the cup? Maybe a little write up about your pulls and the amount of time it takes to do two pulls? When you get a chance of course.

I often feel like Silvia users say they feel while pulling shots. "OH GREAT ESPRESSO GODS, PLEASE MAKE THIS PULL A DAMN GOOD ONE!"

#24: Post by **RapidCoffee** » December 1st, 2007, 8:41 pm

Kaffee Bitte wrote:To be fair here, you are tasting these pulls, not as one double shot, but separatly. Are you removing the cup right when you see evidence of blonding or completing the pull and removing the cup? Maybe a little write up about your pulls and the amount of time it takes to do two pulls?

These were complete pulls, probably in the 20-30 second range (each pull). I was pulling hard, really leaning on the lever. Using a smaller dose and/or a coarser grind naturally reduces the time and/or the lever pressure required to pull the shot.

I really wish I had a bottomless PF for La Pavoni; probably should have chopped this one when I first got the machine (it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission, right?

). But given the limitations of a spouted PF, I'd say the first pull did not blond at all, and the second pull was pure peroxide.

I understand your point about tasting the pulls separately, but that was the whole point of this exercise. Ordinarily I favor normale doubles, not ristrettos. I never cut my shots short (although I do stop them when they begin to blond).

December 1st, 2007, 9:10 pm

20-30 seconds per pull? WOW, that is very long. I can see why the second pull was so terrible. You may want to alter the grind a bit and aim for 10-15 seconds per pull. I use a pretty fine grind, but this seems like it may be a bit to fine.

I don't usually try to pull very hard, though if my grind is off a bit I may have to. It seems to me that a good extraction comes about more often from steady pressure as opposed to very high pressure, especially on the second pull. The first pull usually needs a bit more strength behind it, but the second I aim to just keep it moving at a steady pace. Another thing that helps with the second pull is how you lift the lever back to the top. If you do it quick, you will almost always rip big channels in the puck. The way to do it is, again, slow and steady. I average about ten seconds on lifting the lever for the second pull. Usually about fifteen seconds per pull, not including the preinfusion and fellini's.

Thanks for taking the time to try the earlier suggestions. It is appreciated.

And I hope this helps some.

December 1st, 2007, 9:27 pm

timo888 wrote:I think you do agree that the latter phase of a pump machine's extraction (latter third, latter half, whatever) is thinner in taste than the early phase extraction, and that this taste difference is a feature of espresso extractions in general, and is not particular to lever machines.

Uh, yeah.

timo888 wrote:You may have to bump some pump-machine facts in your brain, your call whether it's on a FIFO or a LIFO basis, to make some room for some lever-machine facts.

It may be a simple matter of poor word choice, but I respectfully ask that you consider the tone of such remarks and refer to the site's Guidelines for productive online discussion as needed. Thanks.

December 1st, 2007, 10:27 pm

HB wrote:It may be a simple matter of poor word choice...

Thanks Dan. Believe it or not, I've still got some spare capacity in my neural networks. If not, well, then I'm in good company. Perhaps Timo subscribes to Sherlock Holmes' theory of the brain as an attic:

"My surprise reached a climax, however, when I found incidentally that he was ignorant of the Copernican Theory and of the composition of the Solar System. That any civilized human being in this nineteenth century should not be aware that the earth travelled round the sun appeared to be to me such an extraordinary fact that I could hardly realize it.

"You appear to be astonished," he said, smiling at my expression of surprise. "Now that I do know it I shall do my best to forget it."

"To forget it!"

"You see," he explained, "I consider that a man's brain originally is like a little empty attic, and you have to stock it with such furniture as you choose.

A fool takes in all the lumber of every sort that he comes across, so that the knowledge which might be useful to him gets crowded out, or at best is jumbled up with a lot of other things so that he has a difficulty in laying his hands upon it. Now the skilful workman is very careful indeed as to what he takes into his brain-attic. He will have nothing but the tools which may help him in doing his work, but of these he has a large assortment, and all in the most perfect order. It is a mistake to think that that little room has elastic walls and can distend to any extent. Depend upon it there comes a time when for every addition of knowledge you forget something that you knew before. It is of the highest importance, therefore, not to have useless facts elbowing out the useful ones."

"But the Solar System!" I protested.

"What the deuce is it to me?" he interrupted impatiently; "you say that we go round the sun. If we went round the moon it would not make a pennyworth of difference to me or to my work."

(from A Study In Scarlet, by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle)

December 1st, 2007, 10:27 pm

Kaffee Bitte wrote:20-30 seconds per pull? WOW, that is very long. I can see why the second pull was so terrible. You may want to alter the grind a bit and aim for 10-15 seconds per pull. I use a pretty fine grind, but this seems like it may be a bit to fine.

I don't usually try to pull very hard, though if my grind is off a bit I may have to. It seems to me that a good extraction comes about more often from steady pressure as opposed to very high pressure, especially on the second pull. The first pull usually needs a bit more strength behind it, but the second I aim to just keep it moving at a steady pace. Another thing that helps with the second pull is how you lift the lever back to the top. If you do it quick, you will almost always rip big channels in the puck. The way to do it is, again, slow and steady. I average about ten seconds on lifting the lever for the second pull. Usually about fifteen seconds per pull, not including the preinfusion and fellini's.

That's how I started out: slow steady pull, perhaps 30-40# pressure. Lately I've been experimenting with more pressure and enjoying the results. That's part of the fun of manual levers: you get to vary the brew pressure with every single shot! Woohoo!

Like you, I find the first pull requires more pressure. This is particularly noticeable without preinfusion. I'm very careful with the upward stroke, for exactly the reasons you mention.

20-30 seconds for a single pull seems appropriate to me for a normale double. You could probably produce a decent lungo with two pulls of 15 seconds each (same volumes as above). As Greg pointed out earlier, the coffee doesn't know whether a pump or a lever is driving the extraction.

December 1st, 2007, 10:37 pm

RapidCoffee wrote:That's how I started out: slow steady pull, perhaps 30-40# pressure. Lately I've been experimenting with more pressure and enjoying the results. That's part of the fun of manual levers: you get to vary the brew pressure with every single shot! Woohoo!

Indeed it is! I too will vary my pressure, but more often than not it is related to the feedback that I am getting from the machine and the looks of the pour. This is my favortie part of the lever experience. The machine tells you what it needs, and it is up to you to supply that need. You become an extension of the metal to create the magic that is espresso.

Often I think this is what grabs people when they try a lever out. Others of course will find it to be too much of a fuss compared to pumps.

I have used both pumps and levers, and I find each enjoyable to use, but the levers are the ones that I feel I get the most out of. This despite their quirks. Well maybe even because of them.

RapidCoffee wrote:20-30 seconds for a single pull seems appropriate to me for a normale double. You could probably produce a decent lungo with two pulls of 15 seconds each (same volumes as above). As Greg pointed out earlier, the coffee doesn't know whether a pump or a lever is driving the extraction.

20-30 for a single pull producing a single shot, seems perfect. Are you really getting a double from one pull? In order to get a double I require two pulls (or near it at least). Often I don't finish the second pull completely, such as if I see evidence of blonding. For lungos, which I will make on occasion, I usually coarsen the grind and pull a bit less enthusiastically. I have also been known to make a cafe crema every so often. Though these will usually only allow one to be made. The group gets too hot to make more than one. I usually limit myself to one of cafe crema a month for this reason.

December 1st, 2007, 11:05 pm

Here is a little trick I have been using lately, and for the life of me I do not know why I have never thought of this before. I think most of us are acquainted with the dreaded portafilter sneeze. If you have not had the pleasure, let me give you a brief primer. Lever machines, or at least the two I have, do not have a 3 way valve. After the shot the portafilter does not depressurize. If you unlock the portafilter right after the shot you will be reminded of this when the pressure blows the portafilter off and showers your kitchen and yourself with 190F water and coffee grounds.

Normally you have to let the machine sit for a moment or two so it can depressurize. To get around this, I lift, or lower, the lever while removing the portafilter. This kind of debunks the idea that air is not sucked up through the puck with a second lever lift. By lifting, or lowering, the lever after a shot I can suck air back into the group which allows me to remove the portafilter right after a shot with no portafilter sneeze.

So if you are in a hurry and need to pull a second shot in rapid sequence, try raising the piston about half a stroke and unlock your portafilter, but please be cautious just in case.