Hi, I'm a newbie trying to decide on my first machine.
I'm thinking of going with a lever machine, the main thing that I'm concerned with is the shot volume.
The idea of doing two pulls or 1.5 pulls seems to be scary.

Is there a machine that will do a full double with one pull? Or is there a machine that is easiest to perform a second pull?

Thanks!

I guess the real question here is how much do you want out of a single pull?

And is the machine you are looking at able make that in a single pull?

Is that single pull giving you the taste you want?

There is more than one yank on the lever to look at.

Ciao Red,

Among home levers, the Gaggia Achille is one of the very few that use a standard 58 mm PF, and as the video "Classico" on this page indicates, you can get a pretty big shot from it:

http://www.home-barista.com/gaggia-achi ... ideos.html

However, it is worth noting that the Achille has been phased out in Europe and may not be available in the US much longer. I'd put it down to the leakage complaints -- however, that's not a deal-breaker for those skilled at DIY repairs.

Happy Brewing,
Wayne

La Peppina has a nifty valve system for double pulls and one of the larger single pull volumes. Something like 40ml iirc, but i've never measured it by myself. Never got to it, never found it really interesting.

None that I know of (save maybe the Achille) have a full 60 ml group volume. If your taste runs towards the lower brew ratios (i.e. the traditional double is 14g/60 ml) you'll need to pull twice or get a commercial lever. Or, pull two 30ml shots.

There have been lots of threads about brew ratios, and it seems that most people's taste these days run towards higher brew ratios, i.e. 14g:45ml or less. Some will debate whether its even possible to make a good traditional double.

You might ask how many of those with commercial levers ever let the pull go a full 60ml.

You're misguided, OP. Just my opinion, of course. Of the many things to be concerned with in selecting a lever machine, shot volume ought to be way way way down on your list of priorities.

The classic single is a tiny drink. Have two!

I agree with Timo
volume is the list that I will consider
quality of the machine components and material
the first

This raises an issue that's bothered me for a while. Why doesn't someone make a lever machine with a full commercial grouphead? Other than the Gaggia Achille, which apparently is on the way out due to quality control issues, there aren't any home levers that sport big commercial style groups. Commercial lever machines have large groups with ~ 58mm PF's, right? Why can't someone make a true "prosumer" lever that has the commercial group with a smaller boiler and case? Seems like this would be the best of both worlds. Not that there's anything wrong with some of the current lever machines like the Lusso, Pavoni or Elektra, but I've always thought that they were somewhat limited by the small group, which makes a smaller shot and heats up faster. Any thoughts?

Red West wrote:Hi, I'm a newbie trying to decide on my first machine.
I'm thinking of going with a lever machine, the main thing that I'm concerned with is the shot volume.
The idea of doing two pulls or 1.5 pulls seems to be scary.

I don't find it "scary" but I'm not much of a fan of double pulls. My experience (which is not necessarily confirmed by others) is that you don't get very good shots using a second pull. With all levers that I use (Brugnetti commercial, Caravel, Peppina and Bruni) preinfusion and one full stroke of the lever are optimum for my taste. Volumes vary - with my machines the smaller machines pull smaller (but delicious) volumes, the commercial machine pulls shots similar in size to a pump machine. If I want more volume I pull another shot.

Beezer wrote:This raises an issue that's bothered me for a while. Why doesn't someone make a lever machine with a full commercial grouphead?

Although we in this forum are great fans of levers, I suspect that the fact that it is, relatively speaking, a small market has something to do with it. There are, however, one group commercial machines like the Conti and Termazona (Aurora), that are small enough to be adapted to some kitchens. While I have, and enjoy, both small and large lever machines the commercial lever is the "star" performer here.

Beezer wrote:Not that there's anything wrong with some of the current lever machines like the Lusso, Pavoni or Elektra, but I've always thought that they were somewhat limited by the small group, which makes a smaller shot and heats up faster.

I didn't pay as much attention as I probably should have when we had one, but I have the impression that the temperature mechanics of those machines depends on the group head to be a little warm, and it's possible that a much more massive head might be more trouble to get ready. And you can draw more shots if they're smaller, before going to the awkward boiler refill exercise.

We now have a commercial lever, which stays on all day so that's not an issue. Compared with the results from my old Zerowatt, with a small diameter but fairly deep basket, I think the Zerowatt is usually better, so from my own limited experience the small group isn't a problem with quality of results.

But I believe you could order the standard commercial lever group from one of the big parts suppliers, so I'm kind of surprised no one has used one on a home-made domestic-size machine.

I think part of the reason why the smaller domestic machines have smaller diameter baskets is mechanics. The bigger diameter basket offers more resistance to the lever. So the lever has to be longer to have the necessary mechanical advantage. This also means the lever and the machine have to be bigger and stronger to accommodate these forces. Sadly the Gaggia Achille is an example of not following this logic. Look at some of the videos of shots being pulled on the Gaggia Achille you will see much straining on the lever and the whole machine flexing.

Geoffrey

Yes, I think the physics, both the force needed to compress the spring, and the heat required to get the group up to temp, makes it unlikely to work with the small-sized boilers common to most home machines. Than said, the club-style home levers are probably used in semi-commercial setting sometimes.

There are some smallish single-group 58-mm levers out there - check out the gallery thread, and some others. My Gaggia Mini also has a 58-mm group, and a rather larger pull volume, but I've only used it a couple dozen times so far, so I can't report on its performance yet. It is open-boiler, and hence no steam, but great temperature control.

It isn't so big a deal to pull two 1-oz shots instead of one 2-oz shot, if space or cost limits your ability to go with a commercial lever.

I'm still waiting to find a single-group commercial lever myself, but its going to need to be both cheap and in good condition, so I'll probably be waiting a while. The three home levers I have had been making the waiting a little easier....

PC

I bought 5 lever espresso machines since the last nine months, one I sold and kept the other 4. The one that gives me the most volume in a single pull is the Conti Prestina. One pull gives one shot, two pull a double. As a Comparison, with the Elektra micro casa, I need to pull almost three times to get a single.

I agree with the remarks above about pressure divided by larger surface area -- a larger lever arm with greater mechanical advantage is required in order to attain the desired brew pressure, and the size and bulk of the machine as a whole must increase in order to keep the machine from tipping over under the greater leverage.

Moreover, commercial standards evolved to maximize the profitability of the extraction: minimize the amount of coffee wasted in each extraction, make it easy to find interchangeable spare parts, enable consistency in operator training. There is nothing inherently superior about 58mm in terms of flavor.

Relative to the commercial standard, narrower-diameter relatively deeper baskets (especially on domestic levers operating comfortably at 6 bars) are more forgiving of operator error... less than perfect distribution, not quite on the mark temperature, overdosing and underdosing. This too makes the commercial standard not the ideal choice for a home machine.

Tip-over can be an issue even with groups of lesser diameter. My Zerowatt has a back handrest, which you must use to keep it from tipping over. That's easy for me but only because I'm relatively tall, I'd say it's a negative feature for general usability. But since the standard commercial lever starts pulling from vertical, it might be possible to brace it more efficiently with a grip on top - more strenuous for me than the Zerowatt, because I can lean over the latter, but less strenuous for someone who can't, because it uses stronger muscles. I wouldn't bet my life on it, but there might be a way to make the ergonomics work out, for people with average upper body strength.

And of course the brew temperature issues are only due to stubborn insistence on a pressurized boiler. A design like my Zerowatt would work equally well whatever the group size. (Though I agree that its reliably good results are likely due in part to the small and deep basket.)

hperry wrote:I don't find it "scary" but I'm not much of a fan of double pulls. My experience (which is not necessarily confirmed by others) is that you don't get very good shots using a second pull. With all levers that I use (Brugnetti commercial, Caravel, Peppina and Bruni) preinfusion and one full stroke of the lever are optimum for my taste.

Agreed. A single pull (with preinfusion) can yield a normale double brew ratio on 51mm Millenium Pavoni and Gaggia Factory levers, with no need for a second pull. You can check the Lever Smackdown for posts on this subject.

timo888 wrote:Relative to the commercial standard, narrower-diameter relatively deeper baskets (especially on domestic levers operating comfortably at 6 bars) are more forgiving of operator error... less than perfect distribution, not quite on the mark temperature, overdosing and underdosing. This too makes the commercial standard not the ideal choice for a home machine.

I have never found this to be the case. On the contrary: in my experience, it is more difficult to get a "pretty" pour with a triple basket than a double, or with a 53mm Spaz double (which is triple height) than a standard 58mm double. Levers, despite lower brew pressure and smaller diameter baskets, do not always yield the most visually striking pours.

As a long time advocate of avoiding a second Ponte Vecchio pull, I must come clean and say that I had a few good to great two-pull shots this weekend. Looks like it's all about the grind - too fine and I crack the puck on the lever upstroke, too coarse and the shot just gushes. The super-fine grind, however, works well if I want to dial in a Fellini-preinfused single pull 20sec shot.

I've already update my thread Evidence against and in favor of two Ponte Vecchio pulls (video).

11 grams in an Elektra single basket yields a beautiful 1oz if I choose it to be so. I love single pulls, and my favorites are those that yield around .75 oz. A single pull, allowing adequate pre-infusion (usually around 20 seconds total.
Slightly OT, I urge anyone whose machine (49mm group) will accommodate the Elektra single basket to purchase one. The improvement over my OEM Cremina basket is amazing.
I purchased mine from Doug at http://www.orphanespresso.com
Obviously, I do agree with Timo and others that shot volume should be maybe the LAST consideration when deciding on a lever. I'd guess spring versus manual would be #1.

Last couple of days I've done some 3-4 pull shots on the PonteVecchio (45mm basket) - filled the 2-oz Nuova Point demitasses right up to the rim. These shots fall right into the "traditional double" brew ratio -15g:60ml. They sacrifice a little body, but that's pretty obvious isn't it? They taste darn good, and they provide a little more pick-up than a normal 30ml ristretto. If one were to pull the same brew ratio shot with 15g in an 58 mm basket, either lever or pump, I'd wager the taste profile would be similar.

This gets right back to timo's comment - our whole concept of what espresso is (i.e. the "traditional double") was created in part in a commercial environment. I doubt there is anything inherently "correct" about a 58 mm basket or a 14g:60 ml double. In fact, I'd argue the opposite - that tall, narrow baskets (and narrow pistons, hence more pressure per pound of leverage) with a couple of pulls, makes it easier to get a better extraction. This basket design is certainly more forgiving in my opinion. Its almost impossible to pull sink shots with the PonteVecchio once one has had a little practice. The Caravel, because it is a manual lever, is a little more touchy. But the design concept, with the tall narrow basket, seems to be able to make the absolute most out of 14g of bean dust and glass of hot water.

PC