Hi all

I'm looking at upgrading my equipment and am considering both dual boilers and levers (the Londinium specifically). I currently own a HX machine and my original plan was to get a DB w/ PID to be able to fine tune the temperature. As of late I'm also considering the LI, but have a few questions related to temperature.

When it comes to the Londinium, Reiss the founder has been very clear that PIDs are just marketing gadgets and there is no need in the LI due to it being so thermally stable.

The weakness I see though is that while it is stable, you can't set the temperature accurately (and easily).

I have read on more than one occasion that changing the temperature greatly impacts the characteristics and quality of the shot. Also, the best temperature may be depending on the coffee. Obviously I've experienced this on my own machine also, but here I'm not able to control it with such precision.

Would the LI benefit from a PID or does it not need one due to the declining temperature profile?

Or are the coffees that require an out-of-the-norm temperature so few so changing temperature is not really required assumed it's stable?

Help me out here...

Help me out here...

Anita is a very stable machine from a temperature standpoint and is very easy to "temperature surf", provided you start from the same baseline each time. I have posted several temperature graphs to that extent . . . just do a search on "Anita" and my user name, "erics".

An important factor for tasty espresso is good and consistent puck preparation. A professional barista will do this with conscientious "muscle memory"; a home-barista needs a little more mental effort. For one to say that 200 F is dandy and 201 F causes the "roof to collapse" is a little beyond my comprehension. If that 201 were 205 or 195, I might have a different feeling but that would require some extensive taste testing with the same bean . . . by no means an easy adventure.

I have the Londinium with a self-applied PID and also have Anita and certainly have experience with DB machines (in the laboooooratory).

Stick with Anita and send me the differential check

There is one other significant aspect about the Londinium you are not taking into consideration while thinking about the taste is the declining pressure profile which to my opinion has a lot more impact than the 3-4c temperature drop during the shot.

Lever machines also designed differently, the group absorbs the excess heat from the water so by installing a PID you can change only the initial shot temperature but the shot profile will stay about the same.

You can also tune a lever machine in the same way by adjusting the PSTAT but I think that if you want to gain convenient access to change the boiler temperature quickly the PID is a good solution.

Just another thing to throw in, pre infusion pressure on levers like the Londinium also differ than pump machines, you pre infuse the puck with low boiler pressure.

Kfir.

I owned an HX, worked with a DB and have a Lever for some time now (first Strega and now Cremina). The difference in taste between a HX and a DB, in my eyes, was pretty small. With a DB it's just easier to get the exact temp but can also be done with an HX and some experience.

A lever gives a much smoother, softer and creamier taste with which I fell in love. I really prefer the taste of a lever compared to a pump machine and wouldn't want to go back. Just try a lever and see if it fits your taste, because if it does you'll never go back.

With a good lever you won't be interested in temperature as much as with a pump machine because of the characteristics of the declining pressure and temperature and the taste it gives.

I also worked with a Londinium a couple of times and it really gives great espresso time after time with minimal fuss. When you're used to working with a lever you'll quickly forget everything you where worrying about with a pump machine and just enjoy the great tasting shots.

I concur with what others have said here that the temperature/pressure profiling of a lever outweighs the benefits of tweaking the temperature. The Londinium is very forgiving and seems to get the best out of almost all the beans I've put through it.

Also, to the best of my knowledge (and please correct me if I'm wrong), PID controls are usually temperature-based. The LI, like most HX machines, works with a pressurestat, and some consider pressurestats more accurate as they represent the state of the boiler as a whole - temperature controls only measure temperature at one point in the boiler and, as water and steam are not good conductors of heat so, theoretically, there could be significant variations across the system (this is a conjecture - I'm open to refutation).

A PID control may give you a read-out of constant temperature but this doesn't necessarily mean the water as it passes through the coffee (which is surely what we are interested in) is as constant as the numbers. More importantly, few argue against the notion that the espresso that comes out of lever machine tastes very good indeed. In day-to-day use my Londinium produces great tasting shots with the minimum of fuss. If, however, you want to play around with different temperatures for different beans, this is not the machine for you.

Bjorn,
I think you're missing a couple of key points with the L1 compared to a DB. The L1 is VERY temp stable due to the thermosyphon through the group and mostly because of the 7 kg commercial grouphead. Also, the boiler is 2.2 liters which helps a bit. But this will work against you if you want to change temps on the fly. Yes you can change temps on the L1 with a pstat (or a PID, makes no difference), but it will take 45 min or so to do this because even though the boiler will go up or down in temp quickly, the grouphead has to reequilibrate too. I suppose you could do some flushes and maybe be ready to go sooner. Also, with a pstat, you don't really know the temp in the boiler, so the process is much more cumbersome because of the guessing involved.

The DB machines (I'm familiar with the Vivaldi) have small group boilers (0.7L e.g.) and a much smaller mass in the grouphead and you can shift temps much more easily. If you play around with different coffees every day and want to adjust the temps every day, a stock L1 would not be a good choice. The DB machines with PID also have a temp offset calibrated at the factory/dealer so the temp reading is the actual grouphead temp and not the boiler temp. If you put a PID on the L1, you would need to figure this out by yourself.

However, my own feeling is that a lot of it comes down to personality and your own approach to coffee. One big advantage of levers and the L1 in particular is that it delivers great coffee over a wide variety of beans. There are definitely some roasts that don't do as well as others. If you had a modded L1 with PID or wanted to fool around with the pstat, you could probably make those taste great too, but in general, most people would probably leave the pstat alone and brew coffees that work well at those settings. If you love to tinker and twiddle with various settings and need lots of electrical accoutrements on your espresso machine, you would be much happier with one of the higher tech DB's.

I have been thrilled with the coffee coming out of my L1 on a daily basis. In general, I get a higher percentage of great shots from the lever than I did from my DB. I used to own an Anita as well and was very happy after I sold it and moved to a DB. I honestly think you will get excellent coffee from any of the DB's or from the L1 (or Strega or Cremina) -- it probably will boil down to your personality and what floats your boat, coffee wise. Good luck.

You will not be changing temperature accurately or precisely on a shot-by-shot basis with the L1 or any other pressurized lever machine. They simply don't work that way. The boiler water is 20-40C hotter than the brew water, and it needs to be cooled that much by the group. Even if you could develop an accurate and precise relationship between boiler and brew temps to within 1 degree (which you can't), you need to change the Pstat every time you want to change brew temperature, then wait for the boiler water to warm or cool.

erik82 wrote: A lever gives a much smoother, softer and creamier taste with which I fell in love. I really prefer the taste of a lever compared to a pump machine and wouldn't want to go back. Just try a lever and see if it fits your taste, because if it does you'll never go back.

I'm a lever head, have been for 7 years. That said, there ARE really HIGH LINE DB's that can do as you describe.
Specifically, the Slayer. Yep, WAY out of most peoples price range, but a local cafe does the most amazing espresso I've ever had. The fruits are FRUITS, and definable, even for a misfit like me.
The acidity is not jagged, just there.
mgwolf's comments regarding WHICH coffee, which roast degree is especially cogent.
My Cremina loved certain SO's and blends, others not so much, same with roast degree.

peacecup wrote:You will not be changing temperature accurately or precisely on a shot-by-shot basis with the L1 or any other pressurized lever machine. They simply don't work that way. The boiler water is 20-40C hotter than the brew water, and it needs to be cooled that much by the group.

This is absolutely true (although I doubt boiler water would be 40° hotter) and makes my comments about PID redundant.

When it comes to the Londinium, Reiss the founder has been very clear that PIDs are just marketing gadgets and there is no need in the LI due to it being so thermally stable.

Unless one wants to precisely control temperature. This is like saying a car speedometer is just a gadget - true, unless one wants to know how fast one is driving...

I personally find "ballparking" brew temperature with a lever machine perfectly acceptable because I don't really have time to explore the nuances of small temperature change on the taste of espresso. I just want consistently good espresso, and the pressurized lever delivers that. To precisely accurately manage temperature with a lever machine it needs to be unpressurized (open boiler). The ES1 is the only such machine currently in production.

Others are better qualified to discuss the importance of small changes in temperature, but it would be worth your while to learn about this before you decide.