clynch wrote: Regarding the Elektra automatica vs a leva...

Different taste between the two also. They both steam beautifully sweet milk.

Do what I did - flip a coin and get both .

Thank you All!! Right now I'll go used and cheap. I'll continue to read the forum , research, and save the pennies for something awesome. I'm in no rush. I am leaning towards a lever. Thanks again.

I have a brand new Stradivari 8 (super eBay deal), as well as a 70's Pro, 96's Pro, and an early Romantica Millenium, all rebuilt and recondition by me. I have to say that I prefer the Stradivari for several reasons, although without a Europiccola Millenium, they are not founded in a real performance comparison.

I have been dissatisfied with the actual lever/piston mating of La Pavonis. I have always found the fork, pins, and e-clips to be very utilitarian if not somewhat crude. I like that the Stradivari has a more artful meeting of what is essentially the mechanical focal point of the machine. Having rebuilt several older La Pavoni's, I have seen that the bolt and cap at the top of the piston get quite worn and beat up by the lever. The Stradivari's bolt and cap are squared off to mate cleanly with a similarly shaped recess in the lever itself. I have also seen a lot of "stuff" get baked onto the surface of groupheads, and I feel that the simplified shape of the Stradivari's group will attract less of this in the long run. Of course, the exact opposite could be said of the more complicated shape of the base...but I just havent seen as much build up on bases as I have on groupheads. I also like the switch more.

All of my preferences have nothing to do with coffee making ability and have been formed without consideration to price. I don't know what premium the Stradivaris currently command, but if it is more than $100, I would say it probably isn't worth it. If there is a legitimate performance difference resulting from the increased thermal capacity of the enlarged grouphead, I might think otherwise.

I would like to also note that if you ever thought that the La Pavoni drip tray couldn't be any worse, the Stradivari will prove you wrong. The drip tray is thinner and more brittle than the regular one, so much so that it borders on insulting.

for what it is worth I would go for an older Pavoni over a newer one any day. The build quality of the older ones is better. The very old ones are the best IMHO. The Stradivari is silly- why base an espresso machine on a violin? It's ridiculous and no where near as nice aesthetically as the original design.

The pavoni is a great machine for making one coffee- making more than that at a time is a bit of a pain- and especially so if you have experienced the ease and joy of a dual lever Lusso.

The elektra levers are very nice- high quality- but a bit too much if you ask me- both aesthetically and price wise...

My vote would be an older La Pavoni as well. They are very solidly built and very straight forward and down to business. You can strip them down and clean them and/or work on them easily.

The older ones (with the two stage, high/low switch) are nice. You have total control over everything. If you install a pressure gauge, then you can dial in / surf the temperature (by going by pressure). They pull good shots right around 1 bar of pressure on the gauge. Overheating can be a problem, but after a while you get the hang of how to surf temperature.

They fire up and are ready to roll in just a few minutes.

They are built like a tank; take plenty of abuse and turn out great shots day after day, all while looking like a work of art on your counter.

Ray

sorrentinacoffee wrote:for what it is worth I would go for an older Pavoni over a newer one any day.

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The pavoni is a great machine for making one coffee- making more than that at a time is a bit of a pain

The older ones are said to have temperature control issues. I haven't tried one. And Ray did a beautiful job getting absolute temperature control on his. But on a Millennium model, despite other changes in build quality, some of which I've corrected, you can make shot after shot with good temperature control. I've tested that for you all and posted it here. La Pavoni Millennium Owners, Are Temperature Problems Solved?

drgary wrote:The older ones are said to have temperature control issues. I haven't tried one. And Ray did a beautiful job getting absolute temperature control on his. But on a Millennium model, despite other changes in build quality, some of which I've corrected, you can make shot after shot with good temperature control. I've tested that for you all and posted it here. La Pavoni Millennium Owners, Are Temperature Problems Solved?

Temperature control on the older models is definitely an issue.

I think in hindsight (prior to installing the PID controller), installing a pressure gauge would have helped me quite a bit.

With the older models, you are largely operating blind when it comes to pressure and temperature (unless you install a pressure gauge). The machines tend to run too hot on the low setting and have a bad habit of over heating. Before installing something to control temperature (and before having a pressure gauge), I would usually heat the machine up on high, then flip it off and let it start to cool down. Then when it had just about stopped hissing steam, I would flip it back to low and quickly grind coffee and pull a shot. It was a constant battle of turning the machine on and off, as I tried to guess where the roughly correct temperature was for pulling a shot.

During the learning curve, I would be lucky if I could pull one decent shot out of about 5 or 6. Since installing the PID controller, just about every shot is great (once you dial in the bean/grind). I'm still fine tuning my technique a little, but a lot of it has to do with very minor adjustments for flavor.

I'll say this, you'll definitely learn a tremendous amount about espresso with a La Pavoni. Additionally, since you are the pump, you have the ability to play around with many different "pressure profiles", as it were. Lately, I have been experimenting around with very long pre-infusions (like 1 to 2 minutes) as well as starting out with very, very low pressure at the start of the shot (to combat channeling) and then suddenly increasing the pressure half way through. I think doing anything similar with a pump machine and/or spring machine, would be very difficult to accomplish.

If you want to really learn a lot about making espresso and like having the ability to control every aspect of the extraction, then the older La Pavonis should be very high on your list of machines to consider.

As far as the older vs. newer La Pavonis, I personally like the older model. I have no first hand experience with the later models, but from what I have read on HB, they may not be built quite as well as the older models. I've also read something about a sleeve in the group head, which doesn't sound as nice as the solid brass construction of the older models. The later models do have a pressure stat, which switches the power on/off based on the boiler pressure. That part is actually not bad, since the boiler pressure and the temperature of the machine are very closely tied. The issue (again, no first hand experience, but from what I have picked up by reading threads), seems to be that it's a bit of a hassle to make adjustments to the pressure stat; if I'm not mistaken, they are glued in place at the factory and, in order to free up the adjustment knob, you have to carefully chip away at the glue.

Anyway, when I first was looking around for a La Pavoni, I didn't know any of this stuff. I was simply shopping for a used machine on Craigslist. I ran across several people selling them and one guy happened to have two machines (one with the high/low switch and one with the pressure stat). I asked him which he liked better and he gave me the pros and cons of both. I really didn't understand (at the time) everything he was talking about, but later I ended up finding an old machine for $200 (from another seller) and purchased that (it had the high/low switch).

I've since taken my machine apart many times and have made several modifications to it. It's been quite a learning experience, that's for sure

In my view, based on my experience with the older La Pavoni (the one with the high/low switch, which controls a 250W and 1000W heating element for the high and low settings), I think temperature control is really its only short coming. Prior to installing the PID controller on mine, I wanted to throw it out the window more than once. In fact, for a time, I was going to sell it on ebay (there's a pre-sales video on YouTube actually, which I used for the ebay auction). Without any sort of temperature control (and no pressure gauge), it can be very frustrating. Like I say, in hindsight, I think (if you end up with an older La Pavoni), I would strongly suggest installing a pressure gauge right away. Then you can modulate the on/off switch (while on the low setting) and keep the boiler pressure between about 12 PSI and ~ 14 PSI - in this range, the temperature in the boiler will be between 236 and 240 degrees roughly. That should translate into around 198 to 201 degrees (very roughly) at the group head. Myself, I cool down the portafilter between every shot also (i.e. run cold water over it, until it's "cold" to the touch).

If you buy an older La Pavoni, but have no pressure gauge on it, you may be a little disappointed - as far as being able to pull consistently good quality shots. Temperature surfing without any real means of knowing where the temperature is can be maddening.

If you don't mind installing a pressure gauge on the older machines, then you should be able to have a lot of fun. Or install a PID controller (which several users have done over the years, myself included). Having a PID controller makes a huge difference, although (due to the pressure differential between the boiler and group head), it can still be a little tricky to hit exactly the right temperature on your shots. I usually do a brief "cooling" flush right before pulling a shot, just to purge water out of the siphon tube and to try to equalize the temperature of the group head a bit.

If you love to tinker and experiment, then a La Pavoni is a lot of fun. Yes, the learning curve is very, very long, but the rewards are worth it. It's also best suited to making yourself (and perhaps your wife and/or girlfriend a cup of coffee. When it comes to turning out 4 or 5 lattes for company, however, it will definitely keep you in the kitchen for a bit. Also, steaming milk with the OEM La Pavoni tip is a bit of a chore. The good news is that installing a single hole tip makes a bit difference.

Also, keep in mind that the La Pavoni only has a 49 mm portafilter basket, so the shots tend to be a bit smaller than, say, a prosumer machine with a 58mm E61 basket/head.

Great machine though. I love mine and it looks fantastic on the counter The lattes it turns out are amazing and company always comments on them. I do cheat and slip in a little sweetener, but it's rare that someone doesn't comment on my lattes and/or say they are the best they have ever had.

Still working on the espresso shots. I'm about 90% of where I want them to be with them, but I think a big part of that is the beans and maybe the grind/temperature setting, not so much anything to do with the machine at this point (i.e. "operator error").

Ray

Ray,

Excellent summary of the frustration I've dealt with since my wife gave me one with the high/low switch when we first got married 15 years ago. I have installed a pressure gauge, but to be honest, even with that, when I want a low-hassle great shot, I turn to ANY of my other machines - and recently, the go-to machine has been the Cremina I restored this last year.

We are coming up on our 15th this October... I should begin playing with it again so I can crank out a cappuccino like she's come to know in recent years. To help with that, I'll finally install the temperature strip I got from OE on the group-head (toward the back so it's less obvious).

RayJohns wrote:Temperature control on the older models is definitely an issue.

...

If you want to really learn a lot about making espresso and like having the ability to control every aspect of the extraction, then the older La Pavonis should be very high on your list of machines to consider.

As far as the older vs. newer La Pavonis, I personally like the older model. I have no first hand experience with the later models, but from what I have read on HB, they may not be built quite as well as the older models.

So much of this is preference. What I really liked about getting my Millennium model was that I was surprised and shocked to find that it was so easy to use compared to my E61 machine and my other machines. The build quality doesn't bother me. It looks pretty and holds up just fine. It suits my desire to sometimes not worry about the machine and instead concentrate on making a shot of delicious coffee essence.

BTW, Ray, my restored Microcimbali has the high/low switch, so I can have the "fun" of trying to temperature regulate that machine ... so I had both elements turned on and powered it up, using it per the printed instructions on the tag, which is to wait until the pressure relief valve whistles and then turn off the high switch. It was pushing steam and hadn't yet whistled when I found myself with a hot geyser on my countertop and shut it down. Apparently some cleaning or polishing chemicals were left as residue in the boiler so as it boiled it made extra bubbles!

drgary wrote:It was pushing steam and hadn't yet whistled when I found myself with a hot geyser on my countertop and shut it down. Apparently some cleaning or polishing chemicals were left as residue in the boiler so as it boiled it made extra bubbles!

After I descaled my La Pavoni, I rinsed it out extensively (4 or 5 times with fresh water).

Then, I used it the first time.

When it ran out of water, I opened the cap on the boiler and let the steam come out as normal; never had any problem doing that before, but - this time - when I opened it, the water exploded all over the place. It was like a volcano and blew water clear up to the ceiling in the kitchen. I suspect it had something to do with some latent residue (or gasses perhaps) relating to the citric acid I used for cleaning.

Always a good idea to be extra careful with your machine, right after cleaning it.

Ray