Hey Guys,

I'm looking for some advice on getting a better shot out of my La Pav. I have pinned down and measured as many of the variables as possible but my shots just don't taste that good. They are very "sharp" and "sour" tasting.

Here is my method:

-Measure out 13 grams of 49th parallel epic espresso (fresh beans). My grinder seems to eat about 0.4 grams so the basket probably has about 12.6 grams of coffee in it.
-Grind in my Baratza Preciso. It has to be on the finest coarse-adjustment setting and only a few stops away from the finest of the fine-adjustment setting to pour with decent resistance. This seems a bit extreme but you do what you gotta do.
-Evenly distribute (WDT), tamp.
-Run some water through the group if it is just heating up. I have a group strip thermometer that indicates when it is about 200 deg F. Also, the pressure gauge typically reads about 0.8 bar.
-Lift lever, fill chamber. Lower until I see drops forming on the bottom of the PF. Wait about 3 seconds. Left again slowly, and the push down all the way.

Any ideas what I should try to reduce the sourness/sharpness? Is this a sign of underextraction? Visually the shot looks great. It has nice thick brown speckled crema and pours evenly out the bottomless PF.

Hi spaceman_spiff
try not to wait for those 3 seconds. Just pull down half way see those first drops forming then pull again up without waiting wait 3-4 sec (or none) and then pull again down.
Play with temperature. La Pavoni gets hot very fast and continues to heat. Pull your shot as soon as possible.
ps La Pavoni isn't known for her sweet shots. From my 3 coffee machines la Pavoni shots are the most sour

If your shots are sour, your group head is NOT overheating; quite the opposite. If you could post a video of your routine it would be easier to help pinpoint the cause. Without that, here's my $.02...

beans - great!!
grinder - good
pressurestat setting - good, provided it's accurate
routine - dunno....

on my Pav I would turn it on and let it heat up, bleed false pressure (usually next to none (La Pav Pro/Gaggia Factory), and pull about 4 ounces of water through the group prior to making the first shot. I'd use this water to do two things: warm the group head, and warm up my cup.

Here's a way to see if your group head is not hot enough for your pull. Follow your current routine and drink or sink your first shot, but before doing that, take note of the color of the crema. Is it yellow, tan, speckled tan/brown, dark brown, black? Now, leaving the machine turned on, pull a new shot. Is this second shot better? Is the crema different? If so, how? Yellow to light brown is too cool, thus sour. Tan with brown speckling is usually perfect. And dark brown is usually too hot, which will produce bitter shots. You'll need to tweak your routine to match your machine.

I don't see (read) anything wrong with your current routine that would be an obvious flaw, thus the steps above to try to help narrow down the cause.

Hi Guys,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I really appreciate your help.

Having read extensively about the overheating issue with the pavonis, I can't say that I have experienced it. I have a brand new millenium Europiccola, so smaller boiler and not too many shots before refilling. According to my group thermometer, the group actually cools off a bit after I pull a shot. It goes up to ~220 (4-bars) while pouring, and then back down to ~203 (2-bars) if i let it sit for a bit. I am taking these precise numbers in stride, but I think that the relative change can be regarded as accurate.

In terms of the color of the crema, it looks good to my unexperienced eye. Medium brown with lots of dark brown speckles. The taste is still sour/acidic/sharp however, and gets worse as the shot cools off.

I will experiment with a shorter preinfusion. I will also get some pics and/or vids if I dont see any improvment.

Always a problem...difficult for some to differentiate sour vs bitter (it is for both Barb and I)....I think you are pulling shots with the group too hot.

After re-reading your post I can only come up with one more thought - you are pulling too long of a shot. If your temps are right, or even close with forgiving beans, it could be that you are pulling too long, catching the bitterness that comes when shots blond. Try your normal routine but omit the Fellini move (lifting of the lever to refill the group head after the first partial pull). Yes, your shot volume will be a little less, but it'll help narrow down the cause.

FWIW, I dose 15.5 grams in My Cremina (Elektra basket) and stop the extraction just before a full lever pull to yield about 1.5 ounces. Your group head is smaller, so a 1.3 ounce or so shot may be ideal until you get a bigger basket/deeper portafilter.

Once again, hope this helps to solve the mystery.

So as far as I can tell, it seems to be something to do with my lever technique. I have removed all preinfusion pauses, and the results seem a little better, however unpredictably so. I may have been "front loading" the shot with too much preinfusion, if that is at all possible.

I have noticed that with the fellini move, you need a finer grind to achieve the same resistance on the second down stroke of the lever. This is presumably because in the first half pump the puck expands and loosens up a bit. Then again maybe that means I am just tamping too hard.

There are so many interacting variables that It is difficult to establish cause and effect.

orphanespresso wrote:Always a problem...difficult for some to differentiate sour vs bitter (it is for both Barb and I)....I think you are pulling shots with the group too hot.

Building on this.. forget the thermo strip (I have the same) for a moment: is the shot too hot to drink? Go for a field trip and compare your temperatures with 49th or Cafe Artigiano. Lastly, are you watering down your shot with a lot of blonding? Finally, try updosing.

-phillip

I'd also recommend that you forget the Fellini for the moment and just allow some preinfusion (say 5-8 secs and don't bother whether anything or not is showing at the bottom of the basket) and then go for one smooth even pull and taste what you are getting. If you can, weigh the actual dose of ground coffee, and try timing your shot, too. Whatever the results, that will have got rid of a lot of the variables and make it much easier for you to diagnose any improvements/deterioration with subsequent changes.

Cheers

Mike

spaceman_spiff wrote:Hi Guys,
I will experiment with a shorter preinfusion. I will also get some pics and/or vids if I dont see any improvment.

The "Fellini move" is far overated and not a particularly good technique except for the spring levers for which it was designed. Pre-infuse for 5 to 10 seconds, then complete your shot in one motion top to bottom. You should experience significant resistance, but not enough to use "two hands and all your muscles."

If the machine is, indeed, brewing at lower temperatures you might consider darker roasts as a possible approach. Red Bird espresso, for example, works particularly well in all the levers here.