Hi everyone,

This is my first post on the forum. I have a La Pavoni machine from around 1985 or 1990. I believe it's correctly referred to as the pre-millenium europiccola model. It uses the 49mm size portafilter basket. I purchased the machine used for $200 and it's in great shape over all, but I'm in the process of trying to replace the O-ring around the group head. You can see the machine (and its current state) in these two videos that I just posted on youtube:
So I went on Orphan Espresso, last week, and ordered up several parts, based on the descriptions provided on Orphan's website. The order arrived today, but the parts don't appear to be for this machine. Here are the two parts in question from their website. First, a bottomless portafilter in brass:

http://www.orphanespresso.com/49mm-Bott ... _1850.html

The description reads:

"49mm bottomless portafilter created by Richard Penney for use with machines which have a 49mm filter basket....both pre millenium Europiccola and Professional models. Beautiful heavy brass construction complete with new style La Pavoni black plastic grip."

Unfortunately, Orphan sent me the stainless steel version from what I can see, despite ordering the brass one. However, the real issue isn't the material, it's that it doesn't even fit my machine. On the portafilter that came with my machine, one tab is square looking and the other is sort of a bevel. On the Richard Penney model from Orphane, both tabs are square and this prevents the portafilter from going into my group head and locking in. Is that for a later model machine? I'm waiting to hear back from someone at Orphan, but I thought someone on this forum might have some insight.

The main question I have is in regards to the O-ring. I ordered 2 square profile O-rings off Orphan's website. I can't provide the link - because it's now vanished from the website - but the part was described as this:

"3057 Pre 2008 Millenium OEM Group Portafilter Gasket"

The O-rings I received do have a squared off profile, but they are the wrong size. I'm wondering if they sent me these instead (which are very similar to the ones listed above):

http://www.orphanespresso.com/Millenium ... _3056.html

The O-rings I received from OE are 60mm in diameter, while the ones I need looks like they should be more like 56mm in diameter. The round O-ring I removed from the machine (which had been previously replaced), is about 56mm in diameter and totally round (no square/flat surface). Again, if anyone has any insight, I would love to hear it. I have also contacted Orphan espresso and am waiting to hear back from them as well. I'll follow up either way, in case this information helps someone else down the road.

In the meantime, does anyone know if the square version of the O-ring for my size machine is still available some place?

Ray

We have been puzzling over this Europic and trying to figure it out....the videos help a bit. Your group seems to have been modified at some point and for some reason and possibly your portafilter as well. On the pf it seems the asymmetrical ears will cause the pf to lock in crooked or uneven at least...one ear has been either ground down or worn down from the looks of it. The bottom bell of the group should have square openings where the pf ears enter and not the rounded ones as on your group....never have seen this rounded out appearance with such a thin bit of metal remaining at the edge. Likely it made it easier to find the slots to enter the pf but it looks very odd from the instant of first glance. Your machine group bell and possibly pf have been modified for some mysterious reason.

As per the pf gasket....another mystery as your machine should take a standard round profile o ring type seal and the seal is made by the o ring partially entering the lip of the basket and not the top rim of the basket against the top surface of the gasket as in a standard round rim/flat gasket setup. You and Barb have been discussing this via email this evening as I have been abrasive blasting a Cremina frame. Reviewing all of the weird things about this group I do not think you have some transition group or other La Pavoni oddity but a group that has been modified by previous owner or owners and it will take some meditative examination and thought to figure out what part or parts you will need to get a good seal at the group with the portafilter.

and yes, things disappear from our website and this is when an item goes out of stock....not any vast conspiracy of any kind. For whatever reason, La Pavoni parts supply has been very tight for about 6 months and we order parts from the only US distributor and sometimes get only 1 or 2 of the 10 or 20 that we order. So things can go out of stock and just disappear from the page.

Your machine looks clean and should be pretty easy to get back into service but that group has been the victim of some alterations which may have made sense at the time but are giving you a nice challenge to figure out. By the looks of it, the machine does not use the square profile portafilter gasket since these were used only on the older machines with the screw in brass sleeve but if the square seal works then it is a good solution. A few bits to figure out here.

Hi Doug,

Thanks very much for the reply. And, yes, I have also been e-mailing with Barb and we are trying to get to the bottom of everything, bit by bit

Here is a subsequent video I made for Barb last night, showing the tabs on the portafilter a bit better. At first I thought someone had modified it also, but as you can see from the video here, it appears to be factory, since it's chromed. So your guess is as good as mine on this. As far as I know, the original owner did not make any sort of modifications to the machine (although I will double check with him via e-mail on that).

Here's the video showing the portafilter:
The original owner of the machine said it was purchased new around 1985 or 1990 up in San Francisco, CA. I will try to find out more information as far as the history. As far as I can see, it's an authentic La Pavoni.

On the O-ring, Barb and I have been discussing that via e-mail as well. My machine was overhauled last year (before I purchased it from the original owner) and I believe the original square La Pavoni O-ring (in the group head) was replaced with the more commonly found round style O-ring (like what you sell on your website also). It works "okay" but doesn't always seal perfectly. It also tends to hold old coffee grounds in the crevice between grove (which is machined into the group head) and the radius of the O-ring. The biggest issue [for me at least] is that it seems to allow the handle on the portafilter to go clear around to the 11 o'clock position, instead of the 8 o'clock position, as far as locking down goes. Barb confirmed that La Pavoni is no longer shipping the square gasket (and she was even nice enough to check some of your old kits to see if any were included in that - which I really appreciate!).

Anyway, I actually just e-mailed Barb a minute ago to let her know that I was able to locate a square profile O-ring in the same size as what is currently on my machine (or at least it appears to be the same, or very close to the same, size). I'm going to order a pack of them and see how they fit the group head and if it makes any difference as far as sealing and/or the portafilter handle location. I'll keep you posted on that.

I'm going to contact the original owner and see if I can find out any more info on the history. If you (or anyone reading this thread) have any further insight into the tabs on the portafilter, after watching the video(s) above, I would definitely be interested in hearing them. Thanks!

Ray

There is definitely something screwy here....a close watch of the pf video makes me think that it is not a La Pavoni portafilter....especially not a 1990 era. It has a groove for a spring inside....not available until at least Millenium era. The larger of the two lugs is a rectangular block and the OEM are tapered in a wedge shape with the small end of the wedge on the left, never a rectangular block like the big one. It also has an external ridge right above the lugs all the way around the top....not a La Pavoni feature either. Hard saying just what the story is or was on this one....but as long as you get it worked out eventually that is all that matters.

Thanks for the insight Doug. Like you say, something seems a bit off.

I did hear back from the original owner. Unfortunately, he's 84 years old and can't remember much about the history of the machine. He also just moved across the country and threw away many of the old receipts associated with the machine's original purchase. He did say it had been in for service once or twice.

On the PF I have, the tab on the right side (the larger of the two tabs) does have a slight wedge shape to it. The tab is slightly more narrow on the forward engagement part (when locking it into the group head).

Speaking of which, on the Richard Penney one which was sent to me, I noticed that the tabs do not have this wedge shape. Is this because the one I was sent is not the correct one? In other words, does the Richard Penney PF for my machine have a wedge shape to the tab? I am still interested in buying one from you if it might work on my machine.

Ray

Ray,
If you're not too far from San Francisco I recommend taking the machine into Thomas Cara. Chris knows more about Pavoni's than anyone I've met and I'm sure he could help you out.
Paul

Thanks Paul. I'll give them a call.

Hi Doug,

Is there anyway you can check to see if Barb is getting my e-mails? I've been e-mailing her for the last couple of days with questions, but so far no response. I'd kinda like to find out what you have in stock as far as portafilters that might work for my machine. Thanks.

Ray

Good news.. Barb has surfaced

Ray

I wanted to just follow up a bit here. I ended up buying some square O-rings for my machine, since the round profile O-rings are not really ideal in my view. The biggest issue with the round/curved profile O-ring is that it produces a little gap between the machined metal grove in the group head and the radius of the O-ring itself. This gap holds old grounds like you wouldn't believe. It's nearly impossible to clean between shots, yet the grounds love to fall back into the portafilter basket as you insert and remove it. A square profile O-ring solves this problem, because the square profile completely fills up the grove that is milled into the underside of the group head.

In the photos below, I show the difference between the O-rings and also how the O-ring installs into the group head. The flat surface of the square O-ring should provide a slightly better surface for the lip of the portafilter basket to seal against as well. The one caveat here - if you can call it that - is that the square O-ring is square on all edges. The OEM La Pavoni gasket has a slight chamfer on the inside edge of the gasket, so that it can sit down a bit further when it slides onto the dispersion screen that inserts up into the group head. Since my square O-rings didn't have this, I had to cut it in myself. I used a Mach III razor and ran the blade(s) around the inner edge of the gasket, in order to trim down the rubber a bit. As you can see from the "before" and "after" photos, the result was enough to allow the gasket to seat down fine (photo #4 shows the chamfer that I was able to produce using the razor).

Speaking of rubber, these square O-rings are rated up to 225+ degrees (although I have read that the material they are made from is actually rated up to 425+ degrees F); they are made from the same material as the round type which are commonly being sold to pre-millenium europiccola owners. Specifically, they are made from Buna-N, which is a very durable rubber that is often used for the production of O-rings.

Here are some photos. I'm very pleased with the fit on my La Pavoni, that's for sure!

O-ring comparison:


This picture (below) shows the O-ring on the dispersion screen before the chamfer modification:

Here is the O-ring after chamfering:

Here are some pictures of the O-ring installed with the chamfered inner edge:



And now installed in the group head: